Surge Brake Problems?

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
My 21' barge is on a single axle trailer with surge brakes and a Titan coupler. The brakes haven't worked for the two years I've had the rig. I'm confident towing without them, but I've recently learned they're required by law (after re-confirming with highway patrol and receiving different info), so of course they need to be addressed. Several weeks ago I checked the reservoir and discovered there was no fluid in it, only rust and scale, which was no great surprise. I cleaned all of that out and filled it with brake fluid but didn't bother attempting to bleed because I quickly became convinced the entire system was junk anyway (based on knowledgeable input from iboaters and others) and determined the best and most cost-effective solution would be a conversion to electric. I wasn't prepared to spring for that at the moment but resolved to take care of it before the boating season began in earnest. Fast forward to now.

I towed it to a lake 70+ miles away on Friday without incident. I had to come home early but left it for the group to use with the agreement that one of them would tow it home today (wouldn't normally do that, but that's how much I trust this particular group). The trailer sat empty on grass at the resort for about thirty hours and got rained on quite a bit. My buddy called this morning to tell me that the curb side wheel was locked up. I told him to put some weight on it while someone else pulled the trailer and see whether that freed it. It did, and they left the resort that afternoon with it in tow. He called me again fifteen miles from my house and told me that the wheel had locked up again, smelled like something burning, and was too hot to touch, so I went to meet him. By the time I got there the wheel had cooled down and was turning freely again. I had already called for a rollback because my insurance covered it and I didn't want to risk further damage.

While I waited for them to arrive I noticed a very small amount of grease had escaped from the hub, I assume as a result of the heat. The trailer doesn't have bearing buddies. It just uses rubber plugs that can be removed for greasing. I've never had any bearing issues. I periodically jack up the trailer and jiggle and spin the wheels, never finding any play or noise, and I place my hand on the hubs any time I stop while towing and they are never more than barely warm, so I assume what happened was not bearing related but brake related. I'll at least jack it up and listen while I spin the wheel tomorrow afternoon, but I want to know what you guys think.

Based on what I've said does it sound plausible that the brakes could have simply locked up on one side after not working at all for nearly two years? Is it possible that they're trying to work now that there's fluid in the coupler? Could I have created this problem by adding the fluid? What are the chances the heat cooked the bearings? How should I proceed? The trailer mechanic I spoke to several weeks ago said he has seen brakes in that condition that he was able to fix by merely replacing the master cylinder and bleeding the lines.

Need to have this resolved by next weekend if possible, so I'm looking forward to input. Thanks everyone.
 

oldjeep

Admiral
Joined
May 17, 2010
Messages
6,455
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

The only way to proceed is to remove the problem wheel/hub/drum and take a look at it. Hard to say for sure what locked up, could be that some of the brake hardware snapped, or one of the wheel cylinder rods popped out.

Once you figure out what happened to that one, then take the rest off and make sure that the other brakes are not having a similiar issue.
 

Bifflefan

Commander
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
2,933
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Sounds like the brakes are adjusted to tight, or its possible the bearings are loose and letting the hub **** and drag on the brakes. But Im leaning towards to tight as it also sounds like they rusted to the drum when it was sitting by the dock.
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,796
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Pull the drums and check out the condition of the brakes. If everything seems ok, I would replace the brake wheel cylinders and the master cylinder and bleed and you will be done. Not worth just replacing the master or just the wheel cylinders in my opinion.
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

By adding the brake fluid it is possible/plausable that you had enough enough fluid in the lines to actuate at least one side, and if you surge brake master cylinder was working moderatly it could have hung/seized up so the brakes were working 20% cold and 80%+- as they warmed up and expanded..


Just a thought
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

By adding the brake fluid it is possible/plausable that you had enough enough fluid in the lines to actuate at least one side, and if you surge brake master cylinder was working moderatly it could have hung/seized up so the brakes were working 20% cold and 80%+- as they warmed up and expanded..


Just a thought

That was/is my suspicion as well. I talked to the trailer shop this morning and he agreed based on my description of how it went down. I'm just not comfy working on those myself, so I'll probably just drop it off there. He was hopeful that we might be able to get away with replacing the master, blowing out and bleeding the lines, and just cleaning everything up really well. B.O.A.T. Why do we do it?????????:rolleyes::facepalm:
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

That was/is my suspicion as well. I talked to the trailer shop this morning and he agreed based on my description of how it went down. I'm just not comfy working on those myself, so I'll probably just drop it off there. He was hopeful that we might be able to get away with replacing the master, blowing out and bleeding the lines, and just cleaning everything up really well. B.O.A.T. Why do we do it?????????:rolleyes::facepalm:

It does not matter were you are when things sit for long periods of time they rust or rot.
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

It does not matter were you are when things sit for long periods of time they rust or rot.

Yep. In my case the rust occurred at the hands of the PO. The boat lived in a slip until it came to my house. Since I've had the rig the trailer has seen many a mile. The trouble started when I filled the reservoir. After that the brakes went from not working at all to working just enough to cause some serious mischief. I'd simply disable them, but if I have an accident without brakes my insurance carrier will likely drop me in the grease. I certainly would in their shoes. Highway Patrol originally told me 3500 pounds was the braking requirement, but I later learned it's actually 3k. Gotta do the right thing.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

If it were mine I would repair and or replace brake system as well as the the wheel bearings :cool: I wouldn't want to have any problems on the highway and be the cause of an accident :eek: if the trailer were to lock up and swerve into the other lane of traffic. Repair it ASAP and then have piece of mine no mater who is using the unit!
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

If it were mine I would repair and or replace brake system as well as the the wheel bearings :cool: I wouldn't want to have any problems on the highway and be the cause of an accident :eek: if the trailer were to lock up and swerve into the other lane of traffic. Repair it ASAP and then have piece of mine no mater who is using the unit!

Of course. Already broken the news that we won't be on the lake this weekend.:(
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Pretty simple DIY job if you can get the parts. No reason to miss a weekend.

Doesn't seem that simple to me, probably because I've never been exposed to it. I'd love to tackle it with help, but don't really have anyone to show me for the first time.
 

oldjeep

Admiral
Joined
May 17, 2010
Messages
6,455
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Might be worth seeing if a neighbor/friend could help you. No difference between trailer drum brakes and car drum brakes.
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Might be worth seeing if a neighbor/friend could help you. No difference between trailer drum brakes and car drum brakes.

Never done those either, but you inspired me to start reading up on it. Think I'll give it a shot. I need to learn how to do it anyway.
 

Thalasso

Commander
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
2,879
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Do yourself a favor and go with disc brakes.Less stuff to worry about. Electric brakes you will need a controller and the magnets in the brakes rust. Disc all the way. My guess to the wheel lock up is you have a bad wheel bearing. Been ther done that, but my spindle burned off.
 

lncoop

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
5,147
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Do yourself a favor and go with disc brakes.Less stuff to worry about. Electric brakes you will need a controller and the magnets in the brakes rust. Disc all the way. My guess to the wheel lock up is you have a bad wheel bearing. Been ther done that, but my spindle burned off.

I've decided against the electric conversion as the expense outweights the benefit. I'll most likely just replace/clean/bleed whatever I have to to get them working and pronounce it good. Could be bearings, but it's unlikely. The symptoms point to rust and corrosion resulting in brake issues. I'll post results when I have them. In the interim I'll be grateful for any advice on the job I'm about to take on.
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

I've decided against the electric conversion as the expense outweights the benefit. I'll most likely just replace/clean/bleed whatever I have to to get them working and pronounce it good. Could be bearings, but it's unlikely. The symptoms point to rust and corrosion resulting in brake issues. I'll post results when I have them. In the interim I'll be grateful for any advice on the job I'm about to take on.

Morning Incoop-
OK then, first thing I would do is soak (in good deruster juice) the coupler/conection point at the master cylinder were the metal line leaves to go to the wheels.
(this is always the achilles heel of brake work)
 

OldNBold51

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
169
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

If you've a Harbor Freight Co near, they sell an $40 system to bleed brakes single handed. Buy a large Walmart brake fluid can and do this yourself. You hook an air compressor hose to the brake bleed system and it sucks fluid from the master cylinder thru to the wheel cylinders bleeding the system.

My take on your woes is this (strictly IMO): brake fluid absorbs moisture/water. When it gets hot, it expands (boils). After it cools down a bit, it contracts. I think you got the fluid too hot and it boiled causing a lockup. If your master cylinder was leaking fluid at the fill hole unexplainedly, that would be a tell tale sign. Your friend got it to roll again after a cool down but it locked up again when it got hot. IMO, your system is working. It may need a de-scaling at the drum, but a flush with fresh brake fluid may do the trick.

I'd for sure regrease the bearings as the grease in them are now toast.

For all the skeptics about my theory, I had this same problem with my dirt bike. The rear wheel locked up at the caliper after I topped it off in the pits 1 day. After a cool down, all was well. A simple fluid change (old fluid was very old) and it never happened again.
 

dockwrecker

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
1,392
Re: Surge Brake Problems?

Coop, I'm suprised that you wouldn't do this yourself. For the price you'd pay anyone else to replace your drums, you could've had Kodiak disc brakes with everything new front to back with very little effort in an afternoon while sucking down a couple of beers. We've posted a hundred times about how to do it, if you can change a tire, you can do this! We're only a click away, what are friends for if you don't use us?
 
Top