Synthetic v. Regular Oil

[LubeDude]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Originally posted by Ben Walker:<br /> I detest Amsoil in general as I think many of their oils are medocre in quality, yet cost alot. I testd it with a open mind and found it by far it was the best tcw3 oil I had ever seen.<br />

Thanks for you honest reply.<br /><br />Amsoil over the years has stived to have the absolut best product that can be sold to the public. They do not scrimp on additives and use the expensive ones. Cost has never been there selling point. They are constantly improving on every one of there products. Who else do you know that has "FIVE" different 2 cycle oils. They have come to the conclusion that there just wasnt any way to blend a one oil fits all oil. They are allways the oil company that others follow, and are responsable for the other manufactures having the products they have now.<br /><br />They have made great oil products for 30+ years.<br /><br />I have an old Homlite chainsaw that I bought with my Dad about 25 years ago. Its a small saw, actually too small for what I have done with it. It has had an Amsoil diet all of its life at about 80:1, I have saved old Amsoil from my vehicles and used it for chain oil. It still has the original bar and is on the second chain. I just cleaned it up this week and removed the scilencer so I could see into the cylinder. Its so clean, you would never think it was as old as it is. I SeaFoamed it anyway, but there was very little of anything came out. (first time I have ever done it). I have been sold on there products for a long time, but I get more sold every year I use it. Are there products out there that are as good. Yes, I think that there are some that are close. I think that the Mobil MX2T air cooled oil may be at least as good or could even be better. Thats a tough call.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

As far as TCW3 oils go I think Amsoil HPI is by far the best I have tested and I have tested alot of them. XD-100 I havent tested, which I just recieve word is not the same or even close to HPI or even blended by Amsoil according to my source at BRP. So you can take it to the bank that there is no relationship between BRP and Amsoil.<br /> As far as Amsoil other two cycle oils go. The only one I would consider is Interceptor. I have tested it and it is good, but not as good as MX2T(no called 2R).<br /> I have also tested the last 100:1 formulation and found it to be lousy. I havent tested the newest one and have no desire to.<br />My mane beef with amsoil is the clueless idiots that pop out of the woodwork calling themselves dealers and the fact that mach of Amsoils advertising is complete and utter BS. The crackpot dealers and moronic advertising has to go IMO.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

"Amsoil over the years has stived to have the absolut best product that can be sold to the public. They do not scrimp on additives and use the expensive ones. Cost has never been there selling point. They are constantly improving on allways the oil company that others follow, and are responsable for the other manufactures having the products they have now."<br />Lube dude, This is the type of BS I was talking about. The additives that Amsoil uses are generic ones that are sourced from Lubrizol. They do not have the ability to create proprietary additives like Exxon-Mobil or Chevron-Texaco does. That do not even produce their own base oils as the are sourced from Mobil.<br />Th formulation philosphy of Amsoil is to take standard additives and raise the treat level combined with good quality base oil. Some times this approach works great, some times not so great.<br />At any rate this practice is cutting edge at all. For instance the additives found in Amsoil motor oils are the same things you would find in any circa 1980 oil formulation albeit in higher levels.<br /> The reason Amsoil operates this way is because they are a fairly small company and do not have the resources to create proprietary base oils and additives.<br /> Mobil for instance makes additives, PAO's and esters that it will sell to no one else. So in other words Amsoil is limited in that it can only buy what the big boys will sell them.<br /> Another thing that ticks me off about Amsoil is that they refuse to certify their oils. Most of there passenger car oils would not pass certification because of the additive treat leveles being to high, which is fine, but I believe that HPI would easily pass and its laughable that they do not certify it.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Ben:<br /><br />I have nothing to add to what you are saying, we are pretty much in agreement on about 90% of what you say.<br /><br />How are you testing these oils?<br /><br />You might find that sence they have devided there outboard 100:1 from the air cooled 100:1 that the oils might test out better. I have used the old 100:1 in both over many years and had excellent results. I now however use the HPI and have said many times before, and have asked Amsoil also, that if they would take the HPI, Label it as a premix @ 50:1 and an injector oil, and actually have it certified TC-W3 that they would sell a lot more oil. Also, I think they should drop the 100:1 thing all together.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

duplicate

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

I own a fishing lodge so its easy for me to run a oil test using tcw3 oils.<br /> The aircooled oils like interceptor are tested in my snowmobiles and dirtbikes and I tested 100:1 in a stihl chainsaw, blower and trimmer that are used commercially.<br />The tests are mostly a measure of deposit control, but depsoit control has a direct correlation on wear.<br /> I agree in that HPI should be labeled as TCW3 outboard only oil and certified as such. Like any TCW3 oil its performance in non marine applicaitions is less than stellar.<br /> I would love to 100:1 and Interceptor tested for ISO-EGD as well. I would bet Interceptor would pass, but doubt 100:1 would by virtue of its nature.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

BTW its pretty much common knowledge up here that 100:1 oil ratios decrease the life of outboards. OMC tried it and went back to 50:1. Yamaha still reccomends a 100:1 ratio but most commercial operators run 50:1 in them up here. The simply last longer and have less internal corrosion issues witha 50:1 ratio. Even using cheap oils the deposit levels between the two ratios are negligable.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Originally posted by Ben Walker:<br /> BTW its pretty much common knowledge up here that 100:1 oil ratios decrease the life of outboards.

I figured it was probably seat of the pants type testing.<br /><br />Anyway ben, I have explained this on several ocations, but here goes one more time. <br /><br />The 100:1 oils do "NOT" have any solvents in them so the actual ratio is likely much closer to a 50:1 mix anyway. Thus the 8 oz. and not 16 oz per 6 gallons. This is why you cannot use it in injection systems.<br /><br />Many people like the 100:1 oils on this forum, what did you not like about it?<br /><br />Like I previously said about my chainsaw, it has been perfect for 25+ years and still is. I still use it in weed eaters, blowers and trimmers, all run fine.<br /><br />I gotta hand it to ya though, you fessed up to saying that you like the HPI.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Ben, kinda off-topic here,but how far are you from Dryden Ont????

 

[misterguru]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Originally posted by LubeDude:<br /> <br />The 100:1 oils do "NOT" have any solvents in them so the actual ratio is likely much closer to a 50:1 mix anyway. Thus the 8 oz. and not 16 oz per 6 gallons. This is why you cannot use it in injection systems.<br /><br />Many people like the 100:1 oils on this forum, what did you not like about it?

I am new to the 2 cycle thing... lots of great info here on the forum. Thanks.<br /><br />I see you talking about 100:1 synth vs 50:1 conventional... may I run 100:1 using Amsoil or another synth in my 40hp 402 Merc?<br /><br />Also, I have to sdo some search on de-carbing...it is a 1977... I have Seafoam in the garage... damn I am dangerous <br /><br />Also, DH and Walleyehed: I have a prop question posted in the OMC repair if you have the time. Thanks!

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

"The 100:1 oils do "NOT" have any solvents in them so the actual ratio is likely much closer to"<br /><br />Thats non sense. Most TCW3 oils have less than 20% dilluant.<br /><br />"what did you not like about it?"<br /><br />When I tested amsoil 100:1 it formed more deposits after using 50 gallons of fuel than the refferance oil which was a mineral,PIB blend that sells for $5 a quart.<br /><br />"Like I previously said about my chainsaw, it has been perfect for 25+ years"<br />How many hours are on it. I am betting not many.<br /><br />"BTW its pretty much common knowledge up here that 100:1 oil ratios decrease the life of outboards. OMC tried it and went back to 50:1. Yamaha still reccomends a 100:1 ratio but most commercial operators run 50:1 in them up here. The simply last longer and have less internal corrosion issues witha 50:1 ratio. Even using cheap oils the deposit levels between the two ratios are negligable. "<br /><br />When I made this comment BTW I was reffering to 100:1 oil ratios, not Amsoil.<br /><br />"Ben, kinda off-topic here,but how far are you from Dryden Ont????"<br /><br />About 45 minutes away.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

"I figured it was probably seat of the pants type testing."<br /> When I test a oil its anything, but seat of the pants. What I typicaly will do is take two new, identical motors on identical boats, operated on the same lake and run 150 gallons of fuel through them. After the 150 gallons I will pull the plug/inspect and check the exhaust port and piston dome using a borescope.<br />For the air cooled oils tested witha dirt bike I will run each oil for 50 hours then rebuild witha new piston and rings. This way its easy to compare deposit levels of various oils since I save all my pistons.<br /> The small OPE equipment like chainsaws and blowers I will either start out with a new engine or I will take a used engin, pull the cylinder and remove all carbon form the head, ex port and piston then run the test.<br /> As I said before my tests only compare deposit levels, but deposits and wear have a direct correlation.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

Ben Walker:<br /><br />Thanks for having a non imotional descusion about this.<br /><br />I find it hard to believe that you had more carbon buildup with the 100:1 oil, I have found just the opposite to be true under similar tests. Also have found that if the engines that were switched over actually went through a cleaning process if not decarbed to start with.<br /><br />Hmmmmm, Strange indeed.<br /><br />My statement about the solvents is a fact, your statement about the 20% is likely accurate, but you are still running richer on oil than a true 100:1.<br /><br />As far as using a 100:1 mix in a dirt bike I would never recommend that, Because many dirt bike engines require a mix ratio of 25:1 up, I think a 50:1 ratio with the 100:1 oil would be better. Now with the introduction of the newer oils from Amsoil, I wouldnt mess with the 100:1 oil anyway, as far as Im concerned, I would like to see them phased out.<br /><br />The new Saber 100:1 outboard oil should work fine at 100:1 in you 40 HP. However, I personally would run the HPI at 50:1 if it were me. I see no reason to use the 100:1 oil at all.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Synthetic v. Regular Oil

"My statement about the solvents is a fact, your statement about the 20% is likely accurate,"<br />Far from fact. Here is a MSDS for Citgos TCW3 oil. Notice the percentage of solvent is between 10 and 30%. In fact most TCW3 oils use 20% or less dilluant as the dilluant is a major sorce os smell and smoke.<br /> http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/256345.pdf <br /><br />"Also have found that if the engines that were switched over actually went through a cleaning process if not decarbed to start with."<br /> <br />I never have seen any oil clean carbon deposits and I have used alot of high end ester based oils. Using a overly rich mixture will clean them out, but thats about it.<br /><br />"As far as using a 100:1 mix in a dirt bike I would never recommend that, "<br /><br />All my bikes get a 32:1 mix period. The only thing I would ever think of using amsoil 100:1 is outdoor power equipment.<br />The only use I would have for a 100:1 outboard oil for is keeping the dust down on a gravel driveway! HPI at 50:1 for me.