TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

[rbruce63]

Why is decarbing in Chrysler and Force engines so critical even while using a good quality TCW-III oil whose main properties among others, were to combat and curtail carbon build up in the combustion chambers?<br /><br />My 1969 Chrysler 20 HP probably through little use from my father had very few carbon build up in the head and piston crowns, even though, in those good old days, straight SAE 30 oil was to be mixed with white marine gasoline (sans detergents) and the carbon build up should have been worse and it is not recommended in the owner's manual as a maintenance proceedure.<br /><br />Please explain, and please indicate me what kind of brand of oil would you guys recommend to use in my vintage and beloved Chrysler 20. I've been using Shell Nautilus, Pennzoil Premium Outboard, Havoline Outboard and lately Johnson Premium XD5 TCW-III?

 

[The Marine Doctor]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

As many of the readers and posters have mentioned...TCW3 is TCW3.<br /><br />You have made a very good point...if all TCW3 is created equal...why must we decarb the engine...after all the cleaning additive is in the oil. Should it not clean the engine?<br /><br />I talked to the Head Mercury Tech for my area. TCW3 is the lowest standard that oil makers have to meet in order to sell their oil.<br /><br />People thoughout the years have confused this issue. Stating that the manufacturers must meet the TCW3 standards.<br /><br />Now...if you read what I have said earlier..Lowest standard to meet TCW3, you will see why some places can charge less for oil...and why others charge more.<br /><br />As for warranty...If a Mercury engine fails within the warranty period due to the oil and you are not using the factory specified oil...YOU have NO warranty.<br /><br />The factory oils meet and exceed the TCW3 standards.<br /><br />I have taken many engines apart...be it exhaust covers or rebuilds..and believe me..you can tell who uses the less expensive oil.<br /><br />TMD

 

[rbruce63]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

TMD:<br /><br />Will it make a difference in your assesment of "minimum requirement" that Royal Dutch Shell manufactures Shell Nautilus, and it does manufacture for Havoline Premium Outboard and Pennzoil Premium Outboard to sell as branded products. <br /><br />I feel that working on motors makes a very important precedent for recommending oils, mixture proportions and I trust your criterium, do you have a favorite brand of TCW-III?

 

[The Marine Doctor]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

All oils start out the same...it is what the manufacturers put into them that makes them different.<br /><br />It's like chocolate chip cookies. There are the main ingredients...then there are the secrets that grandma used to add to make them so much better.<br /><br />As for a recommendation of oil...Mercury brand is recomended by Mercury...who now owns Chrysler/Force. <br /><br />TMD

 

[Realgun]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

I am trying the Cabellas Signature TWCIII oil and as claimed smokes very little if at all. I don't really care if my engine dies as I will replace it that much sooner. However I will maintain it till it does die and as such am gong to use this oil. Probably made by JB in the back room but who knows. My feelings are that it if is sold as oil for 2 cycle outboards then it will work as long as it meets TWCIII reqiurments. No matter what oil is used the Manufacturer must honor their warrantee. Unless they supply you with their oil they cannot dictate to you what brand to use as long as it meets thir recomendation as to grade and spec.

 

[JB]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

The price of TCW-3 oil and the quality of the oil are not that closely related, TMD.<br /><br />The overwhelming portion of a wholesaler's and retailer's costs is in advertising and handling, not in formulating the oil. The bottle costs more than the additives, and the "label" costs more than that.<br /><br />Handling a small volume of heavily advertised oil virtually doubles the necessary retail price to the end user.<br /><br />Virtually every manufacturer of carbed 2 stroke outboards will honor their warranty if ANY TCW-3 oil is used.<br /><br />If brand Y markets oil with their name on it, it would be colossally stupid not to "recommend" it, but by signing on to the NMMA spec for TCW-3 they agreed that TCW-3 would meet the needs of their engines.<br /><br />Every can or bottle of any TCW-3 oil that I have ever read guarantees that the oil exceeds TCW-3 and that it will do no harm to any engine calling for TCW-3.<br /><br />It is not Wal Mart oil that is cheap. It is Wal Mart marketing and logistics. Engines don't know the difference.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

JB, I respect your opinion greatly, but I must ask...Have you actually tried Walmart Supertech, and compared every aspect of it to the oil you normally use????-I am assuming here, but I'm betting you use name brand oil.<br /> As I'm sure you have followed my post on using one gallon of this, and doing comp checks and what not, I found very quickly-within 5 hours-my 97'115 jonny didn't like it after running XD-25.<br />We all must have our own opinions to give us charactor, and my opinion is of use to me, and hopefully those who may have wanted to try, but didn't, type deal.<br /> There simply IS a difference...how substantial, I can't answer, but running perameters REALLY changed in my testing, and the excessive oil running down my mid-section would lead me to believe if I continued use of this, excess carbon would be one factor.<br />Thanks for listening! (reading)

 

[rbruce63]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

I started using Pennzoil Premium Outboard and then I moved to Texaco Havoline Premium Outboard after I finished those two I wanted to try another brand. <br /><br />My trusted mechanic in Missouri told me to leave those two brands for oiling the wheels of my power mower and to get into the private brands such as Quicksilver and Johnson. <br /><br />I bought a gallon of XD-25 and do not see nor smell a difference, I do not feel cheated either and will continue to use XD-25 in my Chrysler based on my mechanic's experience, but I whish there would be more substantial evidence.

 

[The Marine Doctor]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

The evidence is the longevity of the engine.<br /><br />TMD

 

[force01]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Jb,<br />One thing we thing we started to do in 1985 is every outboard that we had to be rebuild or replace we asked the customer what fuels/grade they primarily used and what oils they used. Our conclusion on a lot of the no name oils, failure under 200 hrs was very common on the brand name oils failures were from 500-1800 hrs. this survey is almost 20 yrs old, i would be very interested in input from other shops. after seeing all the results we recommend quicksilver premium plus oil and high grade major supplier fuel and we had great luck with that. thanks, bret

 

[ob]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Don't know how much water this will hold as I have not personally tried it ....yet. However ,I just went to the local John /Rude dealer here with my brother-in-law to drop off his rig for some scheduled maintenance.He runs a 200 hp 98' model Johnson two stroke and mixes 50:1.The wrench(of 20 years) at the dealership says that he runs nothing but the Ficht Ram oil in his carbed two strokes ,mixed at 50:1 ,and claims it is superior to any of the TCW3 oils that were factory recommended.He also claimed that his engines smoke significantly less than with the TCW3 oils.Any thoughts on this?

 

[kenneths]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

ob, I've had a few guys tell me the same about the Ficht Ram mixed 50:1 in carbed 2 bangers.<br /> I just went through a period of one gallon of supertech after agreeing to try it-I've used only J/E oils before this, and XD-25 since it's been available.<br />I intend to try the Ficht Ram at 50:1 as mentioned, as soon as I can get back on the water. Next week maybe...I was putting about 15-20hours/week on it until the cold wave hit.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Hello<br /> oh no the old pil trick again. my VRO 120 johnson runs on 87 octane with supertech from wally world and has done so for the past 6000 gallons or so of gasoline. I have a crabber that runs supertech and has burned over 10,000 galons of gasolineand its still VRO.140 frankenstein I built for him from spare parts. would I reccomend cheap oil? nope. will I use it ? yep.<br />now I do find a lot of carbon in the exhaust from the premix gang. most people that premix mix way to rich with oil. too much can cause problems just like not enough. just takes longer<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[JB]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Yes, guys.<br /><br />I used only SuperTech in my 2 stroke outboards after it came on the market, decarbed regularly and had zero oil-related failures.<br /><br />Before SuperTech I used mainly Quaker State and Pennzoil, who, by the way, "make" SuperTech.<br /><br />Is it worth the extra bux to (maybe) extend the life of your engine some unspecified amount, maybe from 1500 to 2000 hours? Well, that is your choice.<br /><br />I just get impatient with claims that a less expensive package (no advertising, huge volume, superior logistics) automatically delivers inferior oil. It is flawed logic.<br /><br />Chrysler designed engines are well known for coking. . . with whatever oil.

 

[BillP]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

TCW-3 pet oil will leave deposits so that's why you need to decarb. Frequency of decarbing matters how you mix and how fast you run. If you run WFO all the time and don't idle long you don't need to decarb often. I've looked inside a few motors I know the history of with between 500-1000 hrs without decarbing and they have zero buildup inside...with pet oil. I've also seen 1000 hr motors that had 1/8"+ thick crud on the piston crowns from running slow and cold. I decarb seasonally just to make sure no gremlins surprise me.

 

[backdraft]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Guys, I've been running the Ficht ram oil at 50 to one in my 40 Johnson for a year now. Much less smoke, easier starting due to less carbon buidup and zero problems with plugs! nevjb

 

[bonitoman]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

I run penzoil synthetic blend in my 86 110 johnson. I picked that engine up 3years ago and have 400 hour run wot at 5800. My friends that I fish with say I am either idling or running wide open. One night this summer I had nothing to do and pulled my engine apart to look at it internally. It looks nice and shiney and silvery just like I put new pistons and rings in three years ago. I have built a few engines for people over the years and yes omc oil is good and so is quicksilver but if you run the cheap stuff like myself and you are propped right to run upper rpms and use engine tuner every 30 -50 hours, Your engine should last a long time.

 

[rbruce63]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

Bonitoman:<br /><br />But Johnsons are supposed to be superlatively engineered outboards...I would imagine that a Force nor Chrysler would have endured 400 hours at WOT much less with the shiny piston crowns.<br /><br />I believe that the problem is that 50:1 is a ratio thought for providing the needed lubrication to run at wide open throttle, therefore, at part throttle there is too much oil in the system.

 

[backdraft]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

rbruce, I bought my bayliner 19 CC in 1984 new. It has a 125 Force on it. Other than a powerpack and 2 carbs , It has required no maintenance. Never been decarbed, starts instantly, and is run wide open most all the time. It is used all winter in the worst of weather and has nothing but synthetic oil in it since it's been on the market. The head has never been off. For the first 10 years, I used it to troll with as I did'nt have a auxiliary kicker. This motor on this boat has been outstanding. nevjb

 

[walleyehed]

Re: TCW-III and Carbon Buildup

nevjb, are you running the Ficht Ram in the Force as well????