The deed is done!

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: The deed is done!

Woops, did it again. Jtexas: when you have two religions with over 1 Billion followers each that have existed for over 1500 years, and their sets of sacred texts that try to explain everything that exists from that vantage point long ago you have lots of source material. You can find most any historical example over the 1500 years to demonstrate most any point you want to try to prove, or locate any scripture based text to demonstrate anything you want to prove. All that said: Christians 'as a rule' are not canibals, (and your point about that is silly and may have been intended to be silly), nor do Christians routinely bomb innocents, (with a few exceptions that Liberals love to throw out, just to put down Christans). Modern Muslims do have a significant portion of their followers that do believe in seventh century tactics that most non Muslims in todays world reject. A much more telling point is the near total lack of condemnation from the rest of the Muslims to those tactics. In fact the cheers and dancing in the streets by most Muslims helps me form my opinions as I have stated herein. Since 1948 the Muslims in the world have multipied very rapidly, actually since 1979 when my favorite President: JIMMY CARTER set the world stage by creating the conditions for the the fall of the Shaw of Iran they have really multiplied. And they have learned to hate and blame the "Great Satan" for nearly all their problems. If you look at the population demographics of the largely Christian and secular developed world we are rapidly aging and the average age of the Muslim world is very young. If we are unable to prevale in Iraq, and create a self sufficient Muslim country as a democratic republic that can defend itself; it is likely that we will have to decide as a country if we wish to pray to Mecca 5 times a day, (as OBL clearly states, and he is not alone in that statement), or if we want to resist them. Liberals generally hate and sneer at all religions, (most of all Christianity because there are little consequenses to spewing hate towards a turn the cheek type of religion). They don't dare to sneer out loud, or publish cartoons about Muslims because there are consequences. Bottom line: This is not about G W Bush et al, it is a clash of civilization with the seventh century, and we will all need to pull together to save our civilization, and other then the Brits, I would not count on the Europeans, (as most of them fear their own young and growing Muslim populations). Respectfully JR
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: The deed is done!

OBJ said:
someone explain just how the execution of a murdering dicatator sparks such a debate?

OBJ,

Since I played a role I will attempt it for you:

1) Boom says Saddam is dead and what will come of Iraq . . .

2) crunch says Iraqis/Arabs are fundamentally messed up, take their oil.

3) rolmops says hmmmm interesting, who decides . . .

4) QC says deciding on oil bad, deciding good and evil, good, asks for comments

6) JasonJ says be honest about motives in Iraq

7) Others defend original reasons for Iraq war

8 ) Debate continues on Iraq, Constitution, Right and Wrong, Religion and the roles of each . . .

Clear as mud right?
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: The deed is done!

OldMercsRule said:
...Modern Muslims do have a significant portion of their followers that do believe in seventh century tactics that most non Muslims in todays world reject...

Virtually every major sect of Islam believe that Christians and Jews are not infidels, as we all worship the same God (Jewish name Jehovah, or Yahweh). Some fringe groups have trouble with the Christian concept of "the trinity" believing we have elevated two additional deities to the God's level. Most believe that jihad is limited to defending their homeland and/or their religion from aggressors who seek to wipe Islam from the face of the earth. I guess from that standpoint, Crunch is at risk. Crowds cheering in the streets? Who knows what they've been led to believe.

I have too many Muslim friends to allow this kind of hate speech to go unchallenged.
 

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: The deed is done!

Thanks QC for clearing that up for me.......d:)d:)
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

QC said:
Haut said:
just made a comment about the tendencies of Christians not to practice indiscriminant homicide

I think (edit) most of you are still making a critical mistake. Although our most recent bad guys are primarily Islamic fundamentalists, it is not Muslims or Christians or Jews or Quakers or Democrats that are the problem. It is "EVIL PEOPLE". Bad guys (and Gals) do bad stuff. It does not matter necessarily what religion they claim to mis-represent. Religion does not teach murder. Evil people teach murder. Religion does not cure evil, it only identifies it ;)


I want to go into this "evil person" you like to go on about.

Are they born "evil" or do they become that way because of the circumstances of their lives... kinda that old debate of "nature verses nurture".

Was Hitler, Saddam, or now, Ahmadinejad "evil" from birth? Or were they drawn that way, in our minds because of the times and places they grew up in?

Was Jeffery Dalmer evil from birth? Ted Bundy? Timothy McVeigh(sp?)?

We all have a pretty good handle on "evil", but what causes it?
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: The deed is done!

All this debate by very good people, each and every one of all the people debating the insanity of this man almost defie's hunan understanding.

This man is responsible for the death of million's, that's the death of more souls than you can count in your lifetime.

And were keeping score........... may the god of us all be kind to our own ego's or soul's It's no wonder some call the US insane.......................
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

It's no wonder some call the US insane

Free speech and debate is the one enduring right that makes this country "Great"... we can say any thing we want and nobody will slap us down but our peers.... and all the "hubub" only consolidates the "National Agenda"


Ain't it great? :p
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: The deed is done!

Virtually every major sect of Islam believe that Christians and Jews are not infidels, as we all worship the same God (Jewish name Jehovah, or Yahweh). Some fringe groups have trouble with the Christian concept of "the trinity" believing we have elevated two additional deities to the God's level. Most believe that jihad is limited to defending their homeland and/or their religion from aggressors who seek to wipe Islam from the face of the earth. I guess from that standpoint, Crunch is at risk. Crowds cheering in the streets? Who knows what they've been led to believe.

I have too many Muslim friends to allow this kind of hate speech to go unchallenged.[/quote]


Hey JTexas, What are you labeling "HATE SPEECH"????
You replied to a piece of my post and mentioned Crunch. From what I read in Crunch's post, (that I have also read before elsewhere), seems like snippits from the Koran. Crunch seems to be very well informed to me. Is the truth "HATE SPEECH"? I also know individual Muslims that don't seem to be bad people at all, (maybe from the 75% that may not want to follow the quotes Crunch stated in his post, or the seventh century tactics I mentioned in my tome). Are you accusing me of "HATE SPEECH"? That is certianly not my intention. Please clarify what you mean, and specifically identify the parts where I or Crunch stated what you consider "HATE SPEECH" . Thanks JR
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: The deed is done!

jtexas said:
OldMercsRule said:
...Modern Muslims do have a significant portion of their followers that do believe in seventh century tactics that most non Muslims in todays world reject...

Virtually every major sect of Islam believe that Christians and Jews are not infidels, as we all worship the same God (Jewish name Jehovah, or Yahweh).

Hey JTexas, I have no idea what you have been smokin here, but I want some! Do you really believe what you just posted? Respectfully JR
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

Hey JR, you will find that Tex very seldom backs up his opinions with facts, and he is a self proclaimed master at sarcasm.... not a bad sort in the whole, but you have to consider the source. :p
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: The deed is done!

I don't necessarily care about cause custom. I care more about actions. I don't care if you have evil thoughts from birth if you know better than to act on them. The reason I "go on about" evil is that it is man's actions that cause the most suffering to innocent people. Katrina was not man's evil, but those with a misunderstanding of life in general proclaim that it is. They can chase the biggest threat to mankind, Global Warming, until the cows come home and keep farting, but many many more people will die at the hands of others in the meantime. It is so obvious it makes me nuts, but that's OK, those who are confused have good hearts . . . Blechhhhhh!! Again, actions matter, not thoughts.

I am going back to my euphemism for evil, "really bad stuff done by really bad people". The use of that word simply freaks too many people out . . . :rolleyes:
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: The deed is done!

OldMercsRule said:
... Please clarify what you mean, and specifically identify the parts where I or Crunch stated what you consider "HATE SPEACH" . Thanks JR

sorry I was unclear: I was referring crunch's post beginning with "KORAN commands to kill infidels:" Not "hate speech" per se. So, I take it back. I hate to hear people proclaiming that all Muslims are our mortal enemies. It's just not true and counter-productive besides.


OldMercsRule said:
Virtually every major sect of Islam believe that Christians and Jews are not infidels, as we all worship the same God (Jewish name Jehovah, or Yahweh).

Hey JTexas, I have no idea what you have been smokin here, but I want some! Do you really believe what you just posted? Respectfully JR

Yes. Muslims recognize Moses, Abraham, virtually all the Old Testament prophets. Jesus Christ is a prophet in their faith, just as He is in Judaism.
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

Tex, you really need to do some research...

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was no more than a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not 'Trinity' : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (Surah 4:171)

Another Quranic verse which Muslims use to deny the Trinity is Surah 5:116, "And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

Islam denies His deity, though, and reduces Jesus to the status of a prophet only. "He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet." (Surah 19:30, Pickthal translation)

Want me to go on?
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: The deed is done!

crunch,

Those passages confirm jtex's points . . .
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

No they don't, they say that Jesus was not Gods son, just a messenger... whole world of difference.
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

I was referring crunch's post beginning with "KORAN commands to kill infidels:"

That isn't hate speech Tex, that is just a posting of what the Koran says about anyone that isn't Muslim.

Is it hate speech to condemn Hitler? Stalin? Is it hate speech to list their crimes? Get a grip.

Edit: Ok, I’m going to correct myself here... The Koran says that all people of religions other than the Muslim faith have 2 choices, convert or die, except “people of the book” that refers to Jews and Christians... we have a 3rd choice, to pay Zakat. That is a special tax and with it goes second class citizenship.... under Islamic law, it would be better to be dead.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: The deed is done!

jtexas said:
Jesus Christ is a prophet in their faith, just as He is in Judaism.

Crunch,

This is consistent with your posted passages. No, neither Muslims or Jews believe that Jesus was divine, but they do recognize him as a prophet, similar to both Moses and Mohamed.

Also, despite my comments noting that bad people do bad stuff, not bad religions, I am obviously aware of the connection to recent terror events and Islam. This cannot be denied. My point is that the individuals who teach and actually carry out these acts are still the real problem. It is very apparent though that there has not been any widespread condemnation of 9/11 for example by any major Islamic groups. Some isolated examples for sure, but I would submit there is nothing like the outcry one would here from major Jewish and Christian churches, synagogues whatever, if these acts were carried out in those religion's names . . .
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: The deed is done!

This is consistent with your posted passages. No, neither Muslims or Jews believe that Jesus was divine, but they do recognize him as a prophet, similar to both Moses and Mohamed.

But Christians do... Jtexas is a Christian, so I called him on it. According to my limited understanding of the Christian faith, Jesus is the son of God, died for our sins, was resurrected and will come back to take the faithful to heaven in Gods name or place... does that make him a "divine" figure?... you tell me, I don't "subscribe"

I agree with the rest of your post whole heartedly, and the lack of condemnation condemns them all in my mind.

Let me give you a bit of background here, up until 1989 I knew basically nothing about the Moslem world, then the company I worked for got a contract to look at that would place me in Saudi Arabia for 3 years, 6 months out of the year... I did a bit of research, talked to people that had been there, and was horrified. GWI put a big stop to that, but I was also intrigue by the culture and beliefs.

Since then I've kept on top of what is happening there, and looked as deep as I could into the motivation of the people there... and I'm still horrified.

These people have beliefs right out of the stone age, and their systems of Government aren't far behind. Their religion not only fosters and continues those beliefs, but demands them from all followers.

I hate to say it, but I believe this World War against Terrorism is really a war between Islam and the rest of the world... WWIII.
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: The deed is done!

custombycrunch said:
I was referring crunch's post beginning with "KORAN commands to kill infidels:"

That isn't hate speech Tex, that is just a posting of what the Koran says about anyone that isn't Muslim.

Is it hate speech to condemn Hitler? Stalin? Is it hate speech to list their crimes? Get a grip.

Edit: Ok, I’m going to correct myself here... The Koran says that all people of religions other than the Muslim faith have 2 choices, convert or die, except “people of the book” that refers to Jews and Christians... we have a 3rd choice, to pay Zakat. That is a special tax and with it goes second class citizenship.... under Islamic law, it would be better to be dead.

I mentioned this before but it bears repeating...I take back what I said about your words being "hate speech".

To carry your Hitler analogy to it's logical conclusion, to condemn all Muslims would be analagous to condemning all citizens of Germany. This is my opinion which I understand differs from yours.

You've stated what you believe the Koran instructs all Muslims to do. Most Muslim leaders say otherwise and furthermore, they aren't doing that.

For the record, a "prophet" isn't "devine". I said Jesus is a "prophet" in the Islamic faith like Moses and Abraham. In general, where Jesus is concerned, Muslims and Jews are pretty much the same, as I understand it.

[note to QC: there was in fact a lot of condemnation of 911 from the Islamic community, I posted half a dozen links or so a few months ago.]
 

OldMercsRule

Captain
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
3,340
Re: The deed is done!

I was referring crunch's post beginning with "KORAN commands to kill infidels:"

Edit: Ok, I’m going to correct myself here... The Koran says that all people of religions other than the Muslim faith have 2 choices, convert or die, except “people of the book” that refers to Jews and Christians... we have a 3rd choice, to pay Zakat. That is a special tax and with it goes second class citizenship.... under Islamic law, it would be better to be dead.[/quote]

You've stated what you believe the Koran instructs all Muslims to do. Most Muslim leaders say otherwise and furthermore, they aren't doing that.

[note to QC: there was in fact a lot of condemnation of 911 from the Islamic community, I posted half a dozen links or so a few months ago.][/quote]

JTexas, As I stated earlier: you can pick and choose from the fairly comprehensive sacred texts of the three religions to prove just about any point(s) you want to try to prove. All three religions have used mulitple languages over time, (translation issues), and have passages that conflict with other passages in the sacred texts of the very same religion. All three religions have sufficient history (1500 years + or - with Islam, 2000 years + or - with Christianity, and 4000 years + or - with Judasim): and sufficient followers where you can find adherants to the three great monothestic religions that have done or stated things that you can use to attempt to prove any point(s) you want to try to show general rules of conduct to either impeach or praise any of the three religions. That all said: The Jews had periods of violence and peace in their history as have the Christians, but for the MOST part the violence in the name of their religon is long ago, (with a few admitted but very limited exceptions). Islam is a very different situation. #1 It was spread with the sword right out of the box unlike the other two religions, (the Spanish did some of that in Central and South America and the Pacific admittidly). #2 Islam is a "full meal deal" (crushing state government and faith that controls every aspect of life), and has never modernized, (as the other two religions clearly have), hence the "Islamic state" that forces the population to live under seventh century rules in the 21st century. #3 The majority of state to state conflicts over the last 1500 years have been Muslin vs Non Muslim, Muslim vs Christian, Muslim vs Godless Communism, Muslims uprising in Non Muslim states and most of all: Muslim vs Muslim, ('cause they are not Muslim enough). You claim to have posted examples of Muslims condeming the acts of 9/11 or other terrorist actions: I don't doubt that as there is lots of source material as I have stated. Lets look at the overwelming weight of actions by Muslims in todays' world (not many years ago). After 9/11 many many Muslims around the world were dancing in the streets to rejoice the distruction. The overwelming weight of their press, (print, audio and video), is pro homicide bomber, head chopping etc.; and the so called moderate peacefull Muslims allow it to happen with very little said. Muslim mothers train their muslim babies to hate right out of the box, to grow up to become good little homicide bombers. Please show me some examples of others doing that in the name of their religions. Bottom line: Islam is NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE. There are good Muslims that are peacefull, modern and productive; but they are either very few in number, or scared of the violent practitioners of their faith who will cut their throats in the name of Allah. There are a number of very good books by courageous authors like Robert Spencer et al that have done a lot of well documented research on the aplication and practice of Modern Islam. Most of them state that adhearants are allowed and sometimes expected to lie to, steal from, kill, torture non believers, (to include Jews, Christians, Athiests, or Muslims that don't meet the beholders standards). History proves their observations to my satisfaction. You can drink the Kool aid if you want, (that is why I love America and defend her when I can) but I hope your attempts to defend the religion of peace wake readers up to do their own research and draw their own conclusions, which likely will not agree with yours. Respecfully JR
 
Top