The economy and "weird" boat sales.

[aqua_spud]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Books don't buy boats.

Tell that to the loan officer...

 

[mandopickr]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Went by a local boat dealer today to pick up a ram mount. He was closed, and his lot was cleaned of any new boats. Still had some old, junk boats sitting around, otherwise it empty.

I continue to hear business people say "When the recovery starts in summer...". I think they're dreaming. With layoffs occurring at about 500,000/month, I don't see anything good happening for a while. Come late summer, there may be some really good deals.

Another local boat dealer is holding about 20 used boats. And he's had them for some time. Still wants almost new boat pricing, some only 10% off of new boat pricing. He keeps telling me how good business is, but the same boats are sitting there week after week.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

In my recent search for an open V hull aluminum boat I've been shocked by some of the prices people want for a used boat, some over 20 years old and needing plenty of work. Most have been near or above the cost of a new hull.
The only difference has been that the used boat includes a trailer, which is of no value to me since for one I have a trailer I intend to use, and a trailer of this size just isn't that expensive.
I've seen 8" wheel trailers listed for $800 used and over 15 years old, I can buy a new one for under $500.
Motors are the same deal lately, I've seen motors listed as "Ran when last used in 2003", "Needs work" for $1000 or more for a 9.9 hp. I paid $400 for a good running used 9.9 hp Johnson including the new carb kit and waterpump I put in it two years ago and though I paid too much for an early 80's motor. (I bought a brand newTohatsu 9.9 hp. tiller motor for $1395 last fall).
(The Johnson runs circles around the Tohatsu though).

I am most shocked that boat dealers don't seem very willing to deal even with the economy the way it is. I had one dealer tell me that they haven't sold a boat in 4 months, then when I asked for a price on a new hull, they dragged their feet for a week and finally came back with a price that was way over list. I went elsewhere not having the patience for playing games like that. I got the impression that they were trying to gouge anyone that did buy a boat to make up for all the sales the didn't make over the past few months. I went to another dealer, not too far away and got a quote of less than half of what they wanted on the same boat, a year newer and current model year, but I actually found an even better deal on a year old used hull which a left with that day. The first dealer missed out on a cash sale. I went out that day with the intention of buying a new hull or whole boat. I stopped at more than a dozen dealers and all I got was run around. The one I dealt with was the only one that seemed to be in touch with reality.

20% over list on a bare bones boat just won't fly in this market, especially when your competition is two miles away and willing to deal.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

one phrase I used to use a few Jobs back when dealing with shops that were trying to gouge me was

"Listen, your not having steak for dinner tonight. Im offering you a big juicy hamburger. Its not prime rib, but it still tastes good and you wont be going to bed hungry"

Ususally as soon as I gave them the option of eating a burger or going hungry, and let them know I wasnt going to pull their plate out from them but there was to be no Prime rib they understood and came up with a legitimate price. The ones who insisted on overcharging were promptly paid their Diagnostic time and I sent a wrecker to take the vehicle to a shop who was more then happy to have a burger for dinner.

 

[crackedglass]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Went by a local boat dealer today to pick up a ram mount. He was closed, and his lot was cleaned of any new boats. Still had some old, junk boats sitting around, otherwise it empty.

I continue to hear business people say "When the recovery starts in summer...". I think they're dreaming. With layoffs occurring at about 500,000/month, I don't see anything good happening for a while. Come late summer, there may be some really good deals.

Another local boat dealer is holding about 20 used boats. And he's had them for some time. Still wants almost new boat pricing, some only 10% off of new boat pricing. He keeps telling me how good business is, but the same boats are sitting there week after week.

In my search lately for a 16' tinny, I've seen boat dealers with as many as 300 boats on the lot, most are making no attempt to make any deals.
They seem to be trying to make up the difference on those who are buying vs. all those who aren't.
I had several dealers tell me outright that they had to raise their prices to cover expenses since no one was buying new boats. With business reasoning like that, I don't much care what happens to those dealers. I've only been to a few that really sounded like they wanted to make a deal but at that, it was only on what they had in stock. One guy told me that if I wanted a 16' aluminum boat, I should have ordered it two years ago, then maybe I'd be able to get one. He made it sound as if they weren't making them or he simply couldn't get them. It sounded to me like he was cut off from ordering from his source. I had another dealer tell me that you can't use an aluminum boat in saltwater so he wouldn't carry them. I didn't stick around that place for very long. It's not like I'm out to find a freebie, I made it clear that I have cash and want to deal, NOW. Most either ignore you or tell you what you want. That's the one thing I really can't stand to hear, is a salesman telling me what I want or need. More dealers than not are trying to sell for above list price on aluminum boats, very few have anything in stock, those that do have only top end boats.

If nothing else, there should be a glut of cheap boats coming soon when all of these dealers go under. Many already have.

 

[25thmustang]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

I'm trying to give away a project boat for FREE. A 25' Wellcraft Suncruiser. I'm including all the parts I have with it, some stands, outdrives, and even offered to deliver if someone covers the fuel and trailer rental. The first time I was listing it I had easily 100-150 emails and calls, and NOONE even came to look. This time I got one guy to come... The market does suck, even for free stuff!

 

[jkust]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Here in Minnesota there arent many CL boat adds this time of year but I have seen some great deals on almost new Bayliner Runabouts literally half the cost of my similar sized Chaparral I bought last August with the same mercruiser v6. Talk about bad timing I bet I paid way too much for that Chap as the economy tanked like two months later.

Off topic though, I needed snow gear for a ski trip to Colorado next week. I went to Dicks sporting goods last night(next to an out of business Circiut City) who had like a thousand pairs of the same model snow pants. I thought it would be stupid if I didn't negotiate a better price with the store manager. They wouldn't even hear of it so I two doors down to their competition who were more than happy to talk. I put Dicks Sporting Goods on the list of due to fail. They just haven't figured it out when you have a huge overstock of something, your store is dead, it's the end of the season and someone wants to deal, you at least listen.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

I find a lot of the overpriced boats kinda sad. Not because I want to buy 'em, but because I can tell that someone without a clue what something is worth is desperately hoping it's worth more than it is.

I think a lot of the people selling overpriced items need the money, and they look at what they need to get rather than what something is worth. It's like a kid with a hopped up car... he put a lot of his money and self-worth into it, convinced himself that it's "better" than the new cars out because of its style, faster than a dragster because of the engine parts he put on, has a better sound system than a luxury car, and a high quality paint job that makes it look sharper than a new mercedes. His self worth is tied up in it, and he's always believed it's worth what he's put into it.

Accepting that it's still only a 77 monte carlo that's not a good family car, business vehicle, or anything else requires him to accept that it's not the Best Car Ever, and he wasn't all that bright to sink all that cash into it. More importantly, it requires him to feel less valued, because it's his baby.

These are folks out there now who bought into the dream of owning a mansion in the country, a high end boat, and three cars, ignoring the fact that they hadn't "made it" like they wanted to believe, they just took advantage of questionable lending practices to get the trappings of success.

A lot of times they bought items that were flashy but not quality... poorly built homes, low end boats with high end features, etc.

And now they're trying to get out from under debt, but will forever be unwilling to admit all the stuff they bought is worth less than a big fraction of what they paid.

It's hard for people to say "Wow, I've been an idiot for 10 years.. I was never really rich". Hard to say you've wasted years deluding yourself, and you have that much less time to "make it" in life.

There are people out there giving real deals, good and great ones. I'm so glad I have a job now and a little money to spend building a boat and buying used outboards for it. I've rarely bought anything on a loan or installment plan, and I don't really see that changing.

It's a buyer's market.

Erik

 

[jkust]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

It's hard for people to say "Wow, I've been an idiot for 10 years.. I was never really rich". Hard to say you've wasted years deluding yourself, and you have that much less time to "make it" in life.

Erik

Great point Erik. Slightly off topic but I was brought up in an era with little credit and by parents who were super, extreme savers. They taught me and it always stuck that you pay cash or have the actual cash to pay off everything you have...in addition to your investments. I sacrificed throughout my 20's and saved like crazy to finally live well today but am still semi frugal. I can't believe there are so many folks brought up in the same era with such different views on credit and cash.

 

[nightstalker]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Boat sales haven't hit bottom yet. Sellers are living in a dream world if they think they can get what their boat was worth a few years ago. I believe the starting point in today's market is somewhere around 60% of the NADA value. It's not about what a vessel is worth. It's about finding somebody, anybody who has cash to spare. Low gas prices don't encourage sales because everyone knows that gas could go back up to $4.00 a gallon in a heart beat. In this economy, who has the extra cash for a vessel? You can't get a bank loan, so a seller has to find a buyer with cash. If priced accordingly (low), a vessel can sell. A buddy of mine just bought a 1999, 21' Whaler Outrage in vertually showroom condition with a 200 HP Merc (not an Optibomb) with 177 hours on her, T top, full instrumentation, etc. for $17,500. You got any idea what that rig would have sold for a few years ago?
Nightstalker

 

[superpop]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Stalker, I don't think that is necessarily true, a boat is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I think the Bayliners with 3.0L motors are going to be had at a real bargain but if you have a nice runabout with a V6 or bigger and it is in nice shape, I think it will still sell if it is priced right and not at 60% off of NADA. I have a boat for sale right now and I have had a fair amount of interest in it but it is a 1996 Wellcraft 1950 with a V6 and a lot of new boaters are looking for something like this that they can get into for under 10K or so. Mine is in pristine shape and I will not just give it away as I own it so I can simply store it for months if needed until the economy starts to pick up. I think the ones that are really getting hurt are the folks trying to sell the 100K plus boats, no one is buying that much boat right now and those folks are going to get seriously hurt financially if they need to sell. If it is under 10K though, I think there are still a lot of potential buyers out there.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

There are marinas with smaller, lower priced boats which have been abandoned simply because people don't have the money to pay the storage fees.
I was at one place where the guy had over 1000 delinquent boats which were most likely abandoned. Some are giving them away, but only the junk ones so far. There's a glut of larger boats for free, often in running condition. Usually owned by someone who simply can't afford to store them or run them these days. I've seen a few deals but most so far are still trying to get 10 over list or more for new boats.
I've been looking for a simple, bare bones 16' tinny, new or used, and have seen all sort of crazy prices. I looked at one that was 15 or more years old, which had all but one bench cut out, and had waterlogged plywood and indoor carpeting all over it, the guy was trying to get $4600. It was nothing but scrap aluminum in reality. There were what looked like plaster patches all over the hull, ten coats of house paint and the boat numbers were painted on by a three year old. The best price I've seen at a dealer so far has been $3200 plus tax and other assorted fees to jack the price up a few hundred more.
I'm not talking about a commercial work boat, just a bare bones row boat that will hold three full sized adults and maybe a 30hp outboard or so.
The part that gets me is that most dealers have only 12' boats in stock, loads of them, they have leftovers as old as 2003 in stock, along with current models. Around here a 16' tinny is a common boat for back bays, but they don't stock up on them. One dealer said they only get one or two a year, but kept pushing the 12' boat with a 450lb weight limit.

I agree that stores like ****'s will soon be in deep trouble, they buy from the low bidder and buy in quantity, so they can afford to discount but seem greedy when it comes to in demand items. They are also notorious for selling lesser versions of the same item for less. If its for sale at ****'s, and it's way cheaper than anywhere else, then it's most likely a lesser version of that same item.

 

[BigJ08]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

This might be slightly off-topic but it does have to do with selling used things/craiglist and such.
About a year ago me and 2 buddies of mine bought a 1988 coleman popup camper, paid $200. We put about $300 in improvement into it, in preparation for the 12 Hours of Sebring (An ALMS race that is held at Sebring International Raceway in Central Florida). Used it and had a great time but enough about us already. We just sold it for $900 to someone who wanted to use it for the same thing. Now if you count the time and effort we put in we lost money, but speaking purely cash, we made over $100 apiece. When we first put it on CL we were really amazed at the amount of interest in it (only had it on for 2 weeks). The only thing we could think of was the fact that people were downsizing from their big campers down to something they could actually afford. Experiencing this, I think that we will see people downsizing their boat as well. So I agree that we will see the market hold up better for the smaller used boats. It is still very bad though

 

[sickwilly]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

60% off NADA seems too high to me, especially since the recent change in the NADA value for my boat seems to have accounted for the softening market.

Not sure where you bank, Nightstalker, the banks I deal with are bending over backwards trying to get me to accept their money -- problem is I don't want it.

That makes we want to ask the off topic question, have you or anyone responding to this thread really been told "no" on a bank loan, or are you just repeating what the headlines have said?

I am not trying to single you or anyone out, but to really understand this economy and weird boat sales.

 

[superpop]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

I think the difference now is that banks are actually making good loans and not stupid loans. Ironically the folks that don't really need the financing are the ones the banks want as loan customers because they are pretty sure they will get their money back plus interest. The reality though is that way too many people got the impression that loans and borrowing money is a right and not a privilege.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

There are still deals to be had, and you can sell a boat or anything else for more than what you paid for it on craigslist... you can:

* Pay a below-value price to begin with
* Upgrade, fix, or modify the item to make it worth more.. but you probably won't make that money back, depending on what it is
* Hold the item until its going market price is more than it was when you bought it, like used 2 stroke outboards from a few years back

Really, getting cash out of any item for sale is just a matter of finding someone who wants to pay what you want for the item.. things are worth what you can get for them by definition.

The problem comes when people don't realize they're not asking market value, don't realize how hard it will be to find a sucker, and are offended when someone wants to negotiate.

But if someone can find a buyer for a 12 foot tinny for $10k, more power to 'em. I'd never do that unless I was sure the buyer had more money than sense, but that's just me.

 

[salmonee]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Nightstalker, What area of the country are you in? I would gladly pay NADA for a boat right now. The problem is that for some reason up in the NW, we seem to follow the rest of the country in the economy factor by 6months to a 1year. Same thing happened with the housing crisis. I've been watching the market for a year now and so have a pretty good gauge on prices. The boats up here are OVER INFLATED, thousands above NADA. There's hundreds if not thousands of boats on Seattle craigslist right now! I see boats that were for sale last year coming up for sale again this year.

I think I have two options right now. Wait for the reality economy bug to hit the NW region or buy a rig in a hard hit area and have the thing shipped here or drive there and haul her back up. I have cash and the season doesn't really start until 4 months or so, so I keep looking everyday.

BTW, if someone knows a good region close to the NW where I can shop for boats. Please let me know, pm or post. I'm think CA or NV right now.

 

[crashnburn63]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

Nightstalker, What area of the country are you in? I would gladly pay NADA for a boat right now. The problem is that for some reason up in the NW, we seem to follow the rest of the country in the economy factor by 6months to a 1year. Same thing happened with the housing crisis. I've been watching the market for a year now and so have a pretty good gauge on prices. The boats up here are OVER INFLATED, thousands above NADA. There's hundreds if not thousands of boats on Seattle craigslist right now! I see boats that were for sale last year coming up for sale again this year.

I think I have two options right now. Wait for the reality economy bug to hit the NW region or buy a rig in a hard hit area and have the thing shipped here or drive there and haul her back up. I have cash and the season doesn't really start until 4 months or so, so I keep looking everyday.

BTW, if someone knows a good region close to the NW where I can shop for boats. Please let me know, pm or post. I'm think CA or NV right now.

I'm in the Seattle area and in the same boat (figuratively). Prices seem high, presumably cause our economy hasn't really tanked. Tempted to wait more, but every month brings us closer to summer and peak boating season, and seasonally higher prices, I think.

-dm

 

[tmcalavy]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

I've been surfing the Tejas Craigslist while watching this thread grow, and I've decided there may be two reasons for the wild prices I see on boats:
1.) Folks downsizing and selling off toys are shooting for the moon in asking prices...debt? insecurity? lack of market value knowledge?
2.) Fear that the economy will really tank, so I'll jack the price on whatever I've got for sale before folks stop buying anything/everything altogether.
A month ago, there was no lack of boat projects/used boats for less than $1K. Now the rock bottom dollar is around $2K for stuff that couldn't/wouldn't float and doesn't come with a trailer...or which is advertised as needing TLC, no titles, still seaworthy, or "will be a fine vessel despite the tree growing up out of the floor." Yikes!!

 

[mandopickr]

Re: The economy and "weird" boat sales.

What I see on Craig's List in SC is that boats are relisted time and time again, for months. But I am starting to see some decent buys, and it appears that they are being snatched up. The next couple of months will tell how good boat sales are going to be. If they're still holding it in June, they better be prepared to cut pricing significantly, or plan to hold it for another year.

BTW, my credit union sent me paperwork for an unsecured line of credit for $25k @5.5%. Just fill out and send it in. Of course I do a lot of business with them, and have a pretty good credit rating. The money's out there, but I don't see banks (or credit unions) making any risky loans.

I am in the market for a 19-20 ft cc. Unless I stumble on a great deal, it'll be late next summer, or early fall before I start to get anxious. In the meantime, I'll just sit on my cash.