The future of boat launches

[64osby]

I was reviewing potential bids at work today and found this.

2.0 SCOPE OF BID:
2.1 Bidder is to provide the total cost for installing fee and gate equipment
capable of providing cashier free operation of the Gun Lake County Park
boat launch.
2.2 Fee collection equipment must be able to:
2.2.1 Accept all denominations of U.S. currency (coins & dollars)
2.2.2 Reject all fraudulent or foreign currency including Canadian
immediately
2.2.3 Accept credit/debit card for fee payment through Visa and
MasterCard only
2.2.4 Provide change in coins
2.2.5 Accept access cards for annual park pass
12
2.2.6 To be able to withstand the climate conditions that occur in
Michigan including snow, ice and extreme cold temperatures
2.2.7 County personnel must able to clear currency jams
2.2.8 All equipment must be tamper-resistant
2.3 Install an automated barrier gate for entrance and exiting the County?s
boat ramp only.
2.3.1 To be able to withstand the climate conditions that occur in
Michigan including snow, ice and extreme cold temperatures
2.3.2 All equipment must be tamper-resistant

I had to laugh a little when the bid stated

1.4 ...... The boat launch has a fee of $5.00 per launch and is currently
paid with users dropping their payment into a secure drop box. ......
1.5 The recorded boat launch usage for 2010 was 1,268; however, the actual
usage may be significantly higher.

The plans call for an entrance gate with the un-manned pay station and a seperate exit gate. The closest power source is 250' away.

I'm thinking this is $40-50K turn key. I am too high.

They generated $6,340 in 2010 based on fees. And now to spend $40+ ---- 6 year payoff????

I also know for a fact that these gates need a lot of TLC, I have at one at my office.

It must be really important to be climate friendly and tamper resistant, because it was listed twice.

It just seems a little crazy to me. I've never been there and with this added will never go there. I've never paid to launch a boat. I thought here in Michigan our Reg. fee's and other licences (fishing) went towards maintaining public boat launches. At least that's what "they" say is supposed to happen.

Mod's - If I'm not in the right forum, sorry and please move it to the correct forum.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: The future of boat launches

Another example of your government in action. What happens when there is an equipment failure while you are behind the gate? I have a chain in my Yukon and I assure I know what would happen if that happened to me. This is insane and an actual "target" for thieves and vandals. Can you see the pre-season/post-season maintenance bill for this equipment. Was there any mention of a maintenance contract? Can't you see a line of cars trying to get into the site after some yo-ho has plugged up the machine with a bent up quarter. Probably would result in a riot.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: The future of boat launches

read "The Death of Common Sense" by Phillip Howard. It explains how the government (Fed, state and local, and administrative bodies) has turned upside down by removing the ability of government workers to exercise judgment and apply critical thinking--why we spend more to keep federal workers from cheating on travel expenses than we spend on the expenses. Thye book will make you steaming mad, especially when you realize that us citizens can do little to stop it.

Of course, yours may be the isolated, but typical, situation where someone actually did the math, but who also has a cousin in the gate building business.

 

[64osby]

Re: The future of boat launches

I looked at the bid again - The park is only open May 1st - Sept 30th, 5 months, 150 days - 1268 known launches in 2010 - Average 8.5 launches per day.

But it's more like half or more of the launches are on the weekends. They don't have parking for 15 rigs at one time with-in the gates. So you have to pay to launch and pay to retrieveif the lot is full.

 

[lncoop]

Re: The future of boat launches

LOL. The only pay launches I've encountered are the one on Lake Maumelle, which is secured by a Launch Fee 5$ Please Pay Inside sign, and the occasional hand painted sign with honor box to pay your dollar (May be up to two dollars now. It's been a while.) to launch your canoe or john boat on someone's land. Guess we do things a little differently around here. I take that back. There is a launch fee on the Corps lakes. It's usually around $3, but even that's on the honor system.

 

[5150abf]

Re: The future of boat launches

We have one, as in a single, launch on the river near me which has been down for 2 years(!!!!) while they built a bridge that sits on top of the old launch, I was very excited to see they built a really nice 2 lane launch complete with a permenent bathroom instead of the porta potti that is normally there.

Then I found out it is a pay per launch, haven't heard yet what they are planning to charge but since this is the only launch on the river and is usually 4 deep on the weekends I imagine they can get whatever they want.

This is after they doubled the fee for a fishing liceance 2 years ago, not to thrilled but what are you going to do, Indiana is one of the very few states noit running a deficit so I geuss that is how they did it.

I am still waiting to be assesed a fee for being charged a fee that I will have to pay tax on.

We started going to another ramp on the down side of the dam and the fishing is actually better there so even though it is an extra 10-15 mile drive I think I will keep going there.

 

[ajgraz]

Re: The future of boat launches

This is why I rarely if ever take my boat to the reservoirs here. There's the launch fee, the per-person "water contact" fee, the per-person "daily use" fee, the per-person "fishing fee" (on top of the license you already bought). To take my kids fishing at the reservoir 6 blocks away costs over $50 before I even get the boat wet.

All the launches on the bays are free. That's my kind of fee.

 

[RotaryRacer]

Re: The future of boat launches

It just seems a little crazy to me. I've never been there and with this added will never go there. I've never paid to launch a boat. I thought here in Michigan our Reg. fee's and other licences (fishing) went towards maintaining public boat launches. At least that's what "they" say is supposed to happen.

So, you are the guy who doesn't follow the honor rule when you pull into a launch that requires you to drop a few bucks in the tube...thanks.

That being said, I'm guilty as charged also....especially at the ramp in the bid you are looking at.

I used to live a couple miles down the road from the Gun Lake County (Allegan County) park and still launch there quite often, however, I use the State Park more often since my annual motor vehicle permit to the State Parks gets me in there without the added fee at the County Park.

I am honestly perfectly ok with the County that I live in requiring pepole that use the ramps within the County to pay a fee to use them. They have had the honor system at the ramps for many many years. I have skated right through many times and now realize that I too am the reason they need to make access more restricted.

I have not skated on ramp fees ever since I went to the launch at the North end of Gull Lake. It has one of these automated fee payment/gates. I have only been there a couple of times, each time the gate has caused some pretty interesting traffic jams when people pull in with a boat in tow and then realize they don't have a way to pay. Of course by that time another 2-3 boats have pulled in or off to the side of the road and no one can go anywhere until the first person either pays or can somehow manuever out of the very tight entrance to the ramp....all the while the traffic on the street wizzes by at 45 mph.

Having been to the Gun Lake County park 100s of times...I have NO IDEA where they think they are going to put this gate/fee collector. The entrance to the ramp is on the other side of the street from the parking area. They are out of there minds if they are expecting people to pay once to launch and once to retrieve at this ramp. I have seen so many things happen at this ramp that having an added complication such as this gate will cost someone big time in the end...either in damage to a vehicle/trailer/boat due to the limited manuevering space or me as a tax paying citizen of this county.

PLEASE PAY YOUR RAMP FEES...the honor system doesn't work if you don't have enough honor to realize you need to pay to play. We will all suffer in the end and either the ramps will become gated fortresses or there won't be any ramps at all.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: The future of boat launches

It's happening every where and coming to a point where FEE is a 4 lettered word.

Here's the scoop out where I live for the LMNRA.
- Before 2000 = no fee
- 2000 they started a $20/year park fee (TAX) for vehicle or boat (less for daily/weekly and $10 discount for second boat or vehicle) 2010 revenues were around $12 million
- 2011 the park fee (TAX) went up to $30 for a vehicle or boat (I have 2 vehicles and 2 boats so that's $120, actually only $60 as they had an early bird special of 2010 rates for the 2011 tags) Fee revenues by 2014 are expected to be $30 million

To collect fees (taxes) they have built 5-6 multi-lane "staffed" fee stations and they still need to built 3-4 more fee stations to cover the entire park. Sooooo, how much does it cost to build and staff these fee stations

I am still waiting to be assesed a fee for being charged a fee that I will have to pay tax on.

Shhhhhhhhh, don't give them any ideas.....

 

[RotaryRacer]

Re: The future of boat launches

I just went to look at the bid documents.

As I suspected the way that have the gates arranged they will either need to somehow provide a pass for people that are retrieving or you will have to pay the fee twice...once to launch...once to retrieve.

THERE IS NO PARKING INSIDE THE GATES.

I am contacting my County officials on this. This hits too close to home. Literally.

IF YOU USE A RAMP WITH AN HONOR SYSTEM.....PLEASE DO US ALL A FAVOR, AND THROW A COUPLE BUCKS IN THE TUBE.

 

[skyking897]

Re: The future of boat launches

You have it pretty good. The city took over from the conservation authority here... ramp fees are now $11.00 per launch or $135.00/year. The place is usually packed with overflow parking in a grass field. Only used it twice last year because of the fees. I usually take the 10 minute drive to the conservation area just outside of town and it is a better launch.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: The future of boat launches

Here's one for ya'

I took my kids camping at a lake last year and their posted fees were something like;

$10/day - park use
$18/day - camping
$5/ day - boat
$X/day for this
$X/day for that

I was thinking wholly carp, it's going to cost $66 just to go camping for a couple days

I hunted up one of the rangers and asked them about the fees and they said that the $18 "camping" fee includes everything... Of course it wasn't posted that camping includes everything, but there was a huge sign saying that you would be ticketed if you didn't pay the fees.

Still ticked me off that I had to pay $36...

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: The future of boat launches

I think you should have to "pay-to-launch" based on time needed to launch say a buck a minute I think that would be a huge factor in eliminating the ramp idiots.....

Think about it!! I may have the idea of the century here!!

 

[64osby]

Re: The future of boat launches

So, you are the guy who doesn't follow the honor rule when you pull into a launch that requires you to drop a few bucks in the tube...thanks.

I have honestly never been to a launch where fees were required. But I know there will be more and more. If I get my Hurricane project done, I would love to take it and the family to Gull Lake.

LippCJ7
Re: The future of boat launches

I think you should have to "pay-to-launch" based on time needed to launch say a buck a minute I think that would be a huge factor in eliminating the ramp idiots.....

++++++++++

 

[H20Rat]

Re: The future of boat launches

read "The Death of Common Sense" by Phillip Howard. It explains how the government (Fed, state and local, and administrative bodies) has turned upside down by removing the ability of government workers to exercise judgment and apply critical thinking--why we spend more to keep federal workers from cheating on travel expenses than we spend on the expenses. Thye book will make you steaming mad, especially when you realize that us citizens can do little to stop it.

*disclaimer, i work for state gov...*

So what the public doesn't see is the back room dealing that goes on between your elected officials, and people of power. It drives me nuts, I see it every day but there is nothing you can do because it is all legal, and how our system works.

So business X is friends with legislator Y. Well, business X just happens to make automated pay booths for boat ramps. Legislator Y now forces the game and fish/parks& rec to install some of these. The state most likely could do it much cheaper internally IF it was even needed, but Business X wouldn't make money, and Legislator Y wouldn't be happy. Worse yet, business X and legislator Y are often the same person, or at least very closely financially connected.

Yes, it might not make sense and you know it isn't in the public's interest, but your department and job are also at stake via the legislator. In the public's eyes it just looks like Game & fish is making some really dumb choices for no reason.

 

[DuckHunterJon]

Re: The future of boat launches

Blows yer mind, don't it?

 

[shrew]

Re: The future of boat launches

........
2.2.6 To be able to withstand the climate conditions that occur in
Michigan including snow, ice and extreme cold temperatures
,,,,,,

2.2.8 All equipment must be tamper-resistant
.......

2.3.1 To be able to withstand the climate conditions that occur in
Michigan including snow, ice and extreme cold temperatures

2.3.2 All equipment must be tamper-resistant

Gotta love the attention to detail.

 

[lncoop]

Re: The future of boat launches

Wonder if they have launch fees in Egypt or Tunisia? Or Sudan? Hmmmmmmm.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: The future of boat launches

get used to user fees for everything. As we cut both general taxes and spending, there is no great pool of money to support activity for a few. And while it may gripe you to pay a fee, does it gripe you more that $200 of your taxes built a skate park for people in another part of the state, or country? That you paid $150 for a "nature center" you will never see? That you hired the life guards for a beach you don't go to?

The hard part is discerning why the cost to do something, like launch a boat, should be $5 or $25 or $50. But go buy some waterfront property, build a ramp, piers and parking, and do the math. A parking lot on waterfront property is not its "highest and best use" economically, so the parkers have to pay the lost opportunity. (I recently saw an old waterfront cemetary. talk about poor planning! Almost as bad as Portsmouth's waterfront jail.)

But here's the rub: if I had to pay $50 more a year to use a boat ramp, AND my taxes dropped $50, I'd have to say fair's fair. Instead, our taxes go up, our user fees appear or go up, the services are reduced, and it seems that most of our money is wasted paying the retirement benefits of the guy who used to maintain the ramp!

Or isn't this how we think: I hate my taxes paying for some guy in Kansas to launch his boat, but I love the guy in Texas paying to keep my ramp free!

Time's a changing. We have moved from the gravy boat to the life boat. There isn't enough money to pay for everything we want. But on this we can agree: the hard-earned money we pay should not be squandered.

 

[PiratePast40]

Re: The future of boat launches

Most of the reservoirs in the Cascades are either in State Parks or National Forests so ramp and parking fees have allways been a fact of life. Most places, you're on the honor system and either a campground host or DNR officer will check the drop boxes and the receipt in your window periodically. You can buy a season pass but it gets confusing because some lakes will have both federal and state facilities. It's just not a big deal here. I don't mind paying for the services I use.