The future of boating

[tx1961whaler]

Re: The future of boating

Yes, this has alot to do with the corporate tax rates, high regulations, and cost of labor. Canada has just started a push to gain more US companies by lowering their corporate tax rate to 25%. The US is 30% and higher. This explains the losses to foreign countries since NAFTA started. Plus, the regulations to even operate a very limited outside this country. The labor rate is also an big difference due to the union wages and benefits packages, but not the big factor compared to the taxes and regulations. Even a small business can not survive with so many government requirements to keep up on.

In 2009, the union membership rate was 12.3 percent. Half of union workers work for the gov't.
The wage difference between union members and offshore labor is not a big issue. The difference between the labor rate for the average US worker and the average offshore worker IS a big issue. Most offshore workers would be pee-in-your-pants excited over if the got a job in-country at a the US equivalent minimum wage of $7.25/hr. Manufacturing employees in China?s urban areas were compensated at a average rate rate of $1.19 per hour, and those employed in town and village enterprises were compensated at $0.45 per hour.
There is not a real good way to compete against that, given the US average mfg rate is about $23.00/hr.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

In 2009, the union membership rate was 12.3 percent. Half of union workers work for the gov't.
The wage difference between union members and offshore labor is not a big issue. The difference between the labor rate for the average US worker and the average offshore worker IS a big issue. Most offshore workers would be pee-in-your-pants excited over if the got a job in-country at a the US equivalent minimum wage of $7.25/hr. Manufacturing employees in China?s urban areas were compensated at a average rate rate of $1.19 per hour, and those employed in town and village enterprises were compensated at $0.45 per hour.
There is not a real good way to compete against that, given the US average mfg rate is about $23.00/hr.

I agree, but also know that your comparison will not be around much longer, if our government trend continues. Our dollar will not be accepted much longer outside of this country, which means anything we will wish to buy will have to come from the US. Sadly, this most likely will include oil. In the thirties we were a creditor nation, where the world still owed us for WW1. Now we are a debtor nation, and we owe everyone but England, who still has not paid their war debts to us. The middle class that once was, became an illusion after inflation got too high. Then women's lib allowed it to continue, by having two jobs support what once one job did. Nevermind what it did to the generation that would come behind it. Higher crime, broken homes, more drugs, less going to churches, and the big trend to take government handouts with pride! Most people have become isolated in their thoughts, as to where they work and where they live, and the rest is not their problem. They failed to realize that the rest effects their two areas of life, and always has.

 

[Dolfan0925]

Re: The future of boating

wbc1957, you must be such a ray of sunshine to your friends.

Untie the nooses. Everything's going to be ok.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

wbc1957, you must be such a ray of sunshine to your friends.

Untie the nooses. Everything's going to be ok.

I'm yelling out the window right now, that I've had enough and I'm not going to take it anymore! I'm sorry, what did you say?

 

[JimS123]

Re: The future of boating

wbc1957, you must be such a ray of sunshine to your friends.

Untie the nooses. Everything's going to be ok.

It may NOT be OK, and even if it is it may not be in my lifetime. We only need to study history to predict what the future will bring. Trouble is, nobody ever does that. Too many sunshine faces and nobody telling the truth. We have been going down the crapper, but did you ever hear a presiden't State of the Union Address that wasn't all sunshine?

Time to be realistic for a change.

An "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it any more" kinda guy just ran for NY Governor. He was shouting out the windows too. The people ignored him and put in a guy that a true "politician". Since he's part of the problem he certainly won't be part of the solution.

 

[oops!]

Re: The future of boating

this is a great thread,,,,,,lets try not to get political......the mods might have the finger on the smite button.

i havent read all the posts....only 2/3 s of them.

a few points.....in the short term of building/manufacturing boats....its the company that can cut manufacturing costs by reducing waste. that will survive (assuming that there costing is correct) ....one of our companys here called svfara just went under.....they took the boats to campion to be built.......the guys at campion saw the plans and knew why the company could not make it.......the waste in the manufacturing process was huge....a simple tweak of the chopper gun could have saved them 50 bux a unit !...(that may sound like a llittle....but on an assembly line....its huge) further refinements to the manufacturing process and the last i heard was that the svfara could be profitable again pending sales.

bubba is correct in thinking that the market is ripe for a new manufacture to walk in with a different product that floats/tows and goes can clean up.
right now in canada we are at 5 bux a gallon 8 on the lake. there are several manufacturers looking to electric for there power....sunshine composites is one, and have a saleable product.
besides sunshine comp.....i know of three mechanics that are working in there garages to find new power. 2 are going electric and one is using a plasma type design from a patent that ford bought and killed.....all three have asked me to supply them with prototype hulls if successful.

i do know on our lake the number of boaters dropped substantially last season....with the majority of the boats being 19-24 feet, however a strong cruiser market developed due to the drinking laws in our province. (you need to be at anchor with a potty to drink on a boat).

as far as the current state of the economy....its going to be a long time before we get better (north america) in the future....(as this generation dies off and is replaced by todays generation) we can expect to see more trouble as the "you want it ...build it" mentality is replaced by the "i want it now so borrow" mentality. this is thinking is taylor made for the money lenders.......and when they call in the loan......its all over.

 

[5150abf]

Re: The future of boating

Last eyar we had 4 saturdays off between November and August we are currently working every other Saturday and going up inproduction so I don't know about other companies but Bennington is doing very very well and from what I am hearing from the boat shows it could be another really good year.

The economy will bounce back as it always does, it may take a bit longer this time but it will be back and it will crash again.

I believe the lack of new sales is dirrectly related to the huge dump of used boats in the last 2 years, alot of people with current or 1 year old boats sold them to get out from under them so the people that bought them won't be getting new for a few years but boats are selling.

Companies that sold entry level boats were hit much harder than the upscale brands because they rely on us normal guys to buy their boats.

The housing market was hugely over inflated and corrected but that to will be back, I know houses in my area have already begun to climb back in value.

I refuse to take the Fox news doom and gloom veiw of the world, we have been here before we will be here again, it is just how things work.

Companies will make the boats people will buy but there will always be boats.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

Last eyar we had 4 saturdays off between November and August we are currently working every other Saturday and going up inproduction so I don't know about other companies but Bennington is doing very very well and from what I am hearing from the boat shows it could be another really good year.

The economy will bounce back as it always does, it may take a bit longer this time but it will be back and it will crash again.

I believe the lack of new sales is dirrectly related to the huge dump of used boats in the last 2 years, alot of people with current or 1 year old boats sold them to get out from under them so the people that bought them won't be getting new for a few years but boats are selling.

Companies that sold entry level boats were hit much harder than the upscale brands because they rely on us normal guys to buy their boats.

The housing market was hugely over inflated and corrected but that to will be back, I know houses in my area have already begun to climb back in value.

I refuse to take the Fox news doom and gloom veiw of the world, we have been here before we will be here again, it is just how things work.

Companies will make the boats people will buy but there will always be boats.

You can refuse Fox News all you want, but the facts are clear as day, when you look at the collapsing economies overseas and comparing their debt obligations to GDP, and then looking at ours. That bounce back you speak of, has been stated by others over these past few years while unemployment is extended over and over again. This only adds to people's lack of confidence and trust. GM got itself into trouble the first time, by ignoring trends and not taking the lead in innovation. It sounds like the same thing is happening in the boating industry now. Sure, there are a few garage labs that are trying to come up with future answers, but the leaders are not doing anything but trim costs and claim all is well. Sorry, not a good strategy, and not good for customer retention long term.

 

[smallboatlover]

Re: The future of boating

the only thing this resesion is doing for me is make me work harding for my boat. It's not like there no chance that you can buy a boat or get what you want for it. Just work for it. Ive bin working for every thing i got on my boat and my boat. No one payes me money to work on the boat or to buy new stuff i work for every thing i have on that boat.

 

[JimS123]

Re: The future of boating

I refuse to take the Fox news doom and gloom veiw of the world, we have been here before we will be here again, it is just how things work.

I agree.The media is either far biased to one side, or far biased to the other. If you want to know the truth, just talk to your neighbors in town or friend and relatives in other towns. For every good story like you relayed to us, there are 3 other stories that show a completely different picture.

The 10% unemployment figures are totally bogus. Too many people don't make the list anymore, and a bazillion others may be employed, but working at jobs that can't sustain a middle class standard of living.

 

[JimS123]

Re: The future of boating

the only thing this resesion is doing for me is make me work harding for my boat. It's not like there no chance that you can buy a boat or get what you want for it. Just work for it. Ive bin working for every thing i got on my boat and my boat. No one payes me money to work on the boat or to buy new stuff i work for every thing i have on that boat.

God bless you for having a good work ethic. You'll go far in life if you keep it up, and have a good education to help you go even further.

However, the analysis of life is a bit simplistic. When the time comes that you have a family and want to buy a home and have to feed your youngins, reality may set in. Now your boat is your ONLY priority.

As an example, my sister has a Masters Degree and a 29 year career as a professional in a business that was always profitable. Now, because of hard times they needed to reduce costs so they found out they could replace her with a 20 year old with a GED and cut the pay back by 2/3. So, now here is a middle aged woman working as a telemarketer 7 days a week for $12 an hour. She can't work any harder because there are only so many hours in a day.

Good thing she doesn't have a boat. Since part of her monthly house payment is coming from savings, buying stuff for a boat would not be realistic.

 

[sickwilly]

Re: The future of boating

You can refuse Fox News all you want, but the facts are clear as day, when you look at the collapsing economies overseas and comparing their debt obligations to GDP, and then looking at ours. That bounce back you speak of, has been stated by others over these past few years while unemployment is extended over and over again. This only adds to people's lack of confidence and trust. GM got itself into trouble the first time, by ignoring trends and not taking the lead in innovation. It sounds like the same thing is happening in the boating industry now. Sure, there are a few garage labs that are trying to come up with future answers, but the leaders are not doing anything but trim costs and claim all is well. Sorry, not a good strategy, and not good for customer retention long term.

OK .... you have now showed your hand too many times. You are a "perma-bull". I don't know about your section of the show me state, but its time you add some stats and facts, because your perma-bull doom and gloom has become excessive. I have not heard anyone so negative since Obama started his election bid. Life is good. US manufacturing is not dead. Most of us can afford $3.50 - $4.00 dollar a gallon boating. The kids are alright. We will pay off the debt. We work hard, play hard, and the kids I see enrolling are kicking the assesses of us just a few years prior.

If you want to just see the negative, go ahead. In the meantime, those of us who love boating will just plan our spring time projects and take part in the economy. Between now and when my boat net hits the water, I will buy several things from iboats and 0vertons -- I will take part in the economy!

 

[JoLin]

Re: The future of boating

Downturns, recessions and depressions are part and parcel of a capitalistic economic system. I don't agree with those who believe we won't recover because 'this one is fundamentally different from any other.'

Well, every downturn has been fundamentally different from any other, because each time, a different 'fundamental' lies at the root of it.

I've lived, and worked through all the 'we won't recover' downturns:

'70's - You want a scary, non-recoverable scenario? How about unemployment rates similar to today's, coupled with zero/negative GDP growth, 10%+ inflation and 18% mortgage rates?

'80's - our manufacturing base was a dead duck. Japan was the world's powerhouse, buying our assets and debt; and poised to take over the country. Sound familiar?

1999-2000 - Internet bubble burst. Stock market crash

2007 - Banking fiasco and property value decline for the first time in recent memory (but contrary to popular belief, NOT the first time in history).

Property values were long overdue for a huge correction. You can't have a decade or more of double-digit appreciation in a single commodity, when everything else (including salaries) advances at half that rate. The real historical return (look at the last hundred years instead of the last 10-20) on real estate is much, much lower than what we've seen in the last 20 years.

My .02

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

OK .... you have now showed your hand too many times. You are a "perma-bull". I don't know about your section of the show me state, but its time you add some stats and facts, because your perma-bull doom and gloom has become excessive. I have not heard anyone so negative since Obama started his election bid. Life is good. US manufacturing is not dead. Most of us can afford $3.50 - $4.00 dollar a gallon boating. The kids are alright. We will pay off the debt. We work hard, play hard, and the kids I see enrolling are kicking the assesses of us just a few years prior.

If you want to just see the negative, go ahead. In the meantime, those of us who love boating will just plan our spring time projects and take part in the economy. Between now and when my boat net hits the water, I will buy several things from iboats and 0vertons -- I will take part in the economy!

Good for you! But, you failed to follow the original question asked. I do not care how you spend your money on the immediate future. This was not the issue. The issue is what the boating industry will be like, and IF you will be able to do what you wish when buying, servicing, and using your boat. If not, why? If so, why? Sticking your head in the sand and claiming as will work itself out because we always do, or because our kids are brighter, is sort of a cop out. Reread the original question!

 

[halas]

Re: The future of boating

Good for you! But, you failed to follow the original question asked. I do not care how you spend your money on the immediate future. This was not the issue. The issue is what the boating industry will be like, and IF you will be able to do what you wish when buying, servicing, and using your boat. If not, why? If so, why? Sticking your head in the sand and claiming as will work itself out because we always do, or because our kids are brighter, is sort of a cop out. Reread the original question!

Right on, I could not agree more. The overall dynamics of world economy and power structure has changed dramatically in the past few years. The old equations dont apply any more. It is really a mystery what the future holds at this point.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

Right on, I could not agree more. The overall dynamics of world economy and power structure has changed dramatically in the past few years. The old equations dont apply any more. It is really a mystery what the future holds at this point.

Thanks Westlake. I graduated from Bay High back in '75. I miss the Cleveland area too.

 

[sickwilly]

Re: The future of boating

I guess its your thread, so you can be the original question police all you want. However, I answered the original question and then felt a need to respond again to the continued doom and gloom.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

I guess its your thread, so you can be the original question police all you want. However, I answered the original question and then felt a need to respond again to the continued doom and gloom.

I'm sorry you feel that this is all "doom and gloom". My point here was not to get a simple response where all will be alright due to the next generation, or that we always bounce back. These are assumptions, not facts. Never before in our history has there been as much entiltlement debt, debt to foreign countries, more people on unemployment (or worse, not even counted anymore), and having our credit rating being considered for its first lowering from tripe A status. These times are NOT like before! Now I am not talking the end of the world, or saying we must run around in the streets in panic. What I am asking about, is discretionary spending (optional spending) as if there even will be any to spend, in the future. What will it buy in boating, and what issues will there be in receiving what is needed, be it in our current parts needs if we choose to keep our exisitng boats, or buying something new and having the company still be there to warranty it. These are VALID questions and concerns! NOT "GLOOM AND DOOM"! But, if you keep thinking this way, it then becomes obvious that you prefer to turn away from real issues or label them as something not worth your real focus of attention.

 

[emilsr]

Re: The future of boating

This may answer your question:

Somebody was running around our cove in a pontoon with full canvas on Saturday morning. Temp was in the 20's. They weren't doing anything in particular other than going for a boat ride. It's going to be dam near impossible to kill that sort of passion....borders on lunacy for many of us.

No matter what, there will be boaters. So long as there are boaters there will be people building boats, maintaining/fixing boats, and building/selling parts for boats. What it will all look like in 5, 10, 20 years who knows, but discretionary spending on boats will exist.

 

[wbc1957]

Re: The future of boating

This may answer your question:

Somebody was running around our cove in a pontoon with full canvas on Saturday morning. Temp was in the 20's. They weren't doing anything in particular other than going for a boat ride. It's going to be dam near impossible to kill that sort of passion....borders on lunacy for many of us.

No matter what, there will be boaters. So long as there are boaters there will be people building boats, maintaining/fixing boats, and building/selling parts for boats. What it will all look like in 5, 10, 20 years who knows, but discretionary spending on boats will exist.

That may be true, but you are talking about LOTO's. People down there also play banjoes with a passion too.