Thinking on switching from electric to natural gas ..

[Cap'nHandy]

Check out used tanks, should be way cheaper. Typically you buy your propane in the Summer when prices tend to be lower, and then top off a bit in early fall, if you think you will need it, as you don't want to have to buy any in the dead of winter, but I doubt that will be a problem with cooking. Nice thing about cooking with propane, is it can double as emergency heat, you can cook, and stay above freezing even when the electric is out. For cooking only, 500 Gal tank should last a long time. As an alternative, there is also wood, but you have to be somewhat "special" to cook and heat with wood all winter. Did it for a number of years. Lots of work preparing for winter, and keeping it going. But when it is REALLY cold out, you make biscuits! When you heat a wood oven to 450, kitchen gets pretty warm. Remember one thing about propane. Its heavy, and pools. so a leak will crawl on ground. NG is lighter and dissipates up.
Lastly, any appliaces need to be set for Propane, not NG. There are sometimes conversion kits, but NG and Propane are not interchangeable so you cant jsut use a NG stove with Propane. Also, in an area with lots of propane users, you usually find more than one company that sells it, there may be price differences, discounts and other incentives available.

Hope that helps.

Blaine

 

[midcarolina]

I would mount a high pressure regulator 1 psi @ 27 " water column at the tank and run a high pressure line from the tank,( line will be much smaller diameter ) then where you come back out the ground at the house mount a low pressure regulator 1/2 psi @ 10.5 " water column and a multi port manifold with independent gas cocks...........Makes future add ons easy.

But i would check your local codes first..............And once you know the total demand your appliances will have it's easy to determine appropriate line sizes.

 

[bruceb58]

For average household cooking a 120 gallon tank should last at least a year, most likely two.

If he is only using it for cooking that will easily be plenty.

I guess I will need to get the requirements from whatever appliances I plan on purchasing before buying the lines . Would hate to run undersized stuff by mistake ..

But he also said he was going to do more than just cooking.

 

[bruceb58]

]I would mount a high pressure regulator 1 psi @ 27 " water column at the tank and run a high pressure line from the tank[/B],( line will be much smaller diameter ) then where you come back out the ground at the house mount a low pressure regulator 1/2 psi @ 10.5 " water column and a multi port manifold with independent gas cocks...........Makes future add ons easy.

Is that commonly done? When I built my house, the plumber never suggested that to me.

 

[midcarolina]

Is that commonly done? When I built my house, the plumber never suggested that to me.

I can't speak for other area's of the country...........But yes it is regular practice here. It is especially helpful when the tank is located away from the structure. IMO I think it is the proper way......... as I said it allows the gas line to be much smaller and it ensures you have plenty of volume.
Also I would use a large tank if possible ( even if only partially filled ) a large tank has much more surface area to ensure plenty of gas volume in the tank........ which really helps in colder climates.

 

[bigdee]

Lets not get carried away 1/2 inch line is more than adequate even with regulator 40 feet away. I am running two 40k btu space heaters on about 90 feet of 1/2 copper tubing.

 

[bruceb58]

Lets not get carried away 1/2 inch line is more than adequate even with regulator 40 feet away. I am running two 40k btu space heaters on about 90 feet of 1/2 copper tubing.

http://www.lp-gasequipment.com/produ...0_p157-175.pdf

According to this chart, you aren't sized properly.

As far as the OP goes, he needs to size to his expected/future BTU load.

Mine is way overkill for what I have now but I sized it for a future pool/spa heater. My line goes under my driveway so it was do it now instead of later.

Since I believe MidCarolina is a HVAC guy, I would trust his judgement.

 

[midcarolina]

Lets not get carried away 1/2 inch line is more than adequate even with regulator 40 feet away. I am running two 40k btu space heaters on about 90 feet of 1/2 copper tubing.

Well then your heaters are NOT burning correctly if both are operating at the same time.............. 1/2 copper will flow 70,000 btu @ 40 foot run....

 

[bigdee]

Well then your heaters are NOT burning correctly if both are operating at the same time.............. 1/2 copper will flow 70,000 btu @ 40 foot run....

I know it is at limit but they are working just fine. I do not see any change in heaters when one cycles off/on. SO the OP's cook stove and outdoor grill should be fine unless he runs both wide open at the same time!

 

[midcarolina]

It's usually prudent to run a line size that will allow for future add-ons.......... atleast in my way of thinking for a little extra cost upfront one can avoid having to upgrade the entire system in the future...................

 

[sphelps]

Thinking for the future is probably a good idea . I may want to go with a tankless WH at some point and add an inground spa to my pool down the road . The spa would be on the same line as the outdoor kitchen . All good things to consider .

 

[bruceb58]

I may want to go with a tankless WH at some point

That's another subject but I have a tankless water heater and I am not sure I would have done it if I had to do it over again. I did learn a lot and I am close to changing out the one I put in after 8 years because of reliability issues. You can PM me some time if you want more about what I have learned.

Tankless water heaters are huge BTU hogs. Mine is 195K BTUs.

 

[bigdee]

That's another subject but I have a tankless water heater and I am not sure I would have done it if I had to do it over again. I did learn a lot and I am close to changing out the one I out in after 8 years because of reliability issues. You can PM me some time if you want more about what I have learned.

Tankless water heaters are huge BTU hogs. Mine is 95K BTUs.

I agree with bruce on this one. Tankless heaters were created by green people. These "green" energy devices will take the green out of your pocket.

 

[sphelps]

Hmmm I thought those were supposed to be big energy savers .. On one of my searches here I think it was jasoutside that bought one of those electric hybrid WH's . I wonder how that thing is holding up ..
A reg propane WH would have to be a bit more efficient than an electric one wouldn't it ?

 

[midcarolina]

No......... like Bruce said they are gas hogs............a family of four will burn through a lot of gas, I had a Rinnai at my previous house it was actually more expensive to operate versus the electric, but cost savings was not my deciding factor, I had twin 40's that could not keep up with demand.....four teenagers taking marathon showers, and a wife who HAD to use the whirlpool tub every night..............

IMO you would be hard pressed to beat a 80 gallon electric that is well insulated and is on a timer.........

 

[bigdee]

Hmmm I thought those were supposed to be big energy savers ..

They are energy savers. They are also complex so maintenance has to be factored in because that can quickly offset any savings.

 

[midcarolina]

One of the great things about this here interweb is that anyone can look up whatever information they want......... Go visit just about all of the tankless manufacturers websites they have savings calculators....... just make sure you input your actual current costs.

The actual savings ( or lack of ) is based on each households lifestyle and number of occupants. and the type of existing water heater. tankless w/h are not energy efficient under operation........The supposed energy savings comes from the fact the heater ONLY operates when there is a demand.

In many situations it is just like most other " green " products.......... when you add the additional initial cost then any savings divided out by the expected life, many times you find you don't save a thing...............

 

[bigdee]

In many situations it is just like most other " green " products.......... when you add the additional initial cost then any savings divided out by the expected life, many times you find you don't save a thing...............

Yup, your saving energy for the utility provider but it is YOU that supplies the higher installation and maintenance costs. After you factor in the increased energy used for manufacturing and service I don't think there is much energy saved on a global scale. Insulation and proper location (to avoid long runs) of a conventional tank makes more logical sense.

 

[bruceb58]

Since propane is so expensive, I believe I am saving since my gas use has gone down since I started using one. With NG, since it is cheaper, would not likely be worth it.

I de-lime mine every 6 months. Becuase mine has other issues, I take apart the burner assembly every 6 months and clean off the flame rods, hence my looking for another unit to replace mine. Going to replace this time with a Noritz condensing unit.

The energy used for service is MY energy. Not sure that is really significant! The de-lime process is very easy to do.

 

[Gyrene]

Depends on where you are, but something to consider is that electric is a regulated utility, propane prices can, and have fluctuated a lot.
Even if propane is cheaper now, you have to figure the large 1-time setup cost and that gas stoves also cost more.