This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition systems

[WA-Newb]

This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition systems

I have zero experience using voltage meters etc. on outboards (or on anything for that matter) but have been going over the manual for days, actually re-writing the ignition tests in my own terms so I can fully understand what I am doing before attempting to test anything...basically I am scared to touch anything that could break / fry something on accident.

I will have some stupid questions along the way I can tell and am hoping to get the answers from those who know.
This is the thread I will post my "stupid" newbie questions...you can laugh all you want but hey, I gotta learn somehow.

Not sure if it matters but the motor I am working on is a Johnson 120.

First question is..
I want to test to see if there is voltage coming from the Stator by following the manuals instructions.
Here is what the manual says (in my terms):

Stator Test 1. Shorts to Ground Test.
1 Set peak reading voltmeter knobs to negative (-) and 500.
2 Connect black test lead to engine ground.

3 Connect red test lead to Stator terminal A of the two-pin connector
4 Crank engine while noting voltmeter

5 Now switch red test lead to Stator terminal B
6 Crank engine while noting meter.

Stop: Any voltage reading on either connection indicates charge coil (Stator) or charge coil leads are grounded.
Repair leads or replace stator assembly as necessary. Retest after completion.

My questions on this simple procedure are:

1 Set peak reading voltmeter knobs to negative (-) and 500.

- For this test do I have to use a DVA adapter since I am only looking for ANY voltage?

2 Connect black test lead to engine ground.

- Do I just touch / attach the black lead to anywhere on the motor that is a good chunk of metal?

4 Crank engine while noting voltmeter

- I currently have my flywheel off so I can have access to all the ignition components and wiring but it says on many of the tests to crank engine over. Is there a trick to getting better access to all of this or can I ever leave the flywheel off for some tests (doubt it) but am a little confused on this part.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Watermann]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

So first off if it's not broke don't fix it... :lol:

I would put the flywheel back on, start her up on the muffs and check the voltage at the battery terminals. It would read over 12v if charging, say 13 - 14v. If so then your good to go on the stator and charging.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Something is broke and I want to fix it...lol I just don't know what's broke (besides my wallet).
I am trying to check all the ignition components to see if that's what may be causing my erratic idle.
I am not sure exactly what each do yet so wanted to test them all..plus want to learn how to test all of this for future projects.

I will end up researching all these components I am sure...just haven't had time yet.
Stator = Charging (but does it do something else?)
Flywheel = ??? I know it has something to do with magnets and creating the DC power
Timer Base = ???? Guessing something to do with Timing and spark signals
Power Pack = Sending the spark at the right time I am guessing
Coils = Turning DC into AC high voltage to create the strong spark
Regulator = ??? Regulates something I am sure...lol

It doesn't run good right now and don't really want to run it until I have an idea of what's causing it...I don't want to start messing things up that don't need messing up..so exactly what you said...if it's not broke don't fix it...lol

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Now while working on my new "How to" page that I am writing I have noticed the test for Running Output (while engine is running) have some different specs (voltages or ohms) for the test that are done while cranking the engine only.

Is this the norm? so while cranking I should have one set of numbers and while running those numbers could be different?
here's the example:

Testing power pack while engine is only being cranked it says:
Power pack output should be 175 volts or more.

But Then...for the RUNNING Output it says.
Power pack running output should be a continuous 230 volts.

same goes for other things...like Sensor Coil
Running Test: Sensor coil (Timer Base) Running Output should be continuous 1.0 volt or more on all tests.
Cranking Test: Sensor coil output is acceptable if output is 0.3 volts or more on each terminal.

Anyone know if that sounds right?

 

[Watermann]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

I don't know about the numbers your wanting to verify for the testing but I do know about the forum here. Guys here as with any mechanic want to know symptoms to be able to help troubleshoot the problems. "An erratic idle" will net you more questions than answers from the other users who are trying to pin down the OP on specifics. Guys here want to help and will go the extra mile if given the chance. The most someone can hope for is one of the marine engine gods that lurk here to take an interest in your thread. I'm not one of them...

 

[kodibass]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

I have DVA's, I have 2 stevens instrument ignition testers, I have 3 Merc-o-tronics testers & just today I was working on a mid 1980's evinrude 15 that had no spark on the top plug. took of the coil tested it according to specs in my stevens st-75 chart. 0 to 4 amp scale should be 1.4 max for this coil with a reverse polarity set to the CD setting. Coil tested ok for continuity Pri/sec. also. cleaned everything up good put it back no spark. went to my parts pile got a different coil BAM got spark. So learn all you can about Dva's, peak voltage, ohms etc. but don't forget to make sure your spark plug is gapped correctly & your fuel vent is open. "-)

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Watermann....I am almost thinking I have been too specific with my symptoms or something I am doing is wrong since my threads have just died out each time.
That's why I am trying to learn all of this stuff on my own the best I can but it sure would be nice if the marine gods did drop by more often..I wake up and check my threads before I even get my coffee hoping they dropped by with a gleam of hope or even despair for me and that's saying a lot since I am a major coffee first type person.

So I just decided to go look at what I have posted so far just for this ONE motor...and now I am depressed...lol
I do not type fast (two finger typist) and if you have read any of my threads you will see I tend to add as much information as I possibly can and am usually adding to my own threads with more info or thoughts even if I get no replies.
I could have probably went and found a $2 an hour job and worked the same amount of hours as I did typing all that and ended up with enough money to pay a marine mechanic...but wheres the fun in that?...lol
I do love to learn but this boat stuff has been a battle to be honest.

But I always appreciate the help I can get so I am not complaining...(possibly venting) but I will just take what help I can get and be thankful there is a site like this.

Since I was looking I decided to copy them all down...these started threads are all related to my "erratic idle"...lol
At least having threads like this is a way I can reflect back on things I have tried or done already...I had already forgotten about a few of them actually.

Thread 1: Flooding Problems...and would like to bypass tanks
1 Marine God reply..3 posts from me then died out
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...oss-power-would-like-bypass-tanks-595377.html

Thread 2: Intermittent Loss of Power Please help With What to Check.
0 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...ntermittent-loss-power-what-check-595569.html

Thread 3: Is my linkage working and how does motor sound - With Video added
0 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...kage-working-how-does-motor-sound-596130.html

Thread 4: Carbs spitting fuel please advise
4 Replies from 2 possible marine gods...then died out
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...tting-fuel-please-advise-possible-596867.html

Thread 5: Help Needed With Checking Reeds - 11 Minute Video Added
2 Replies from marine God Joe..YAY!....then he was gone, gone, gone...oh where art thow Joe go?...lol (I think I typed too much or something)
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...wbie-checking-reeds-johnson-120-a-602924.html

Thread 6: Help with my Erratic Idle Problem - New Short Video Added
0 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...ne-have-idea-erratic-idle-problem-605276.html

Thread 7: Help me inspect my flywheel and what next - Lots of photos
0 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...help-visual-inspection-next-steps-605798.html

Updated to add more threads: (just for my sake of having them all in one place)

Thread 8: Need help figuring out why I have no spark at all
2 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...-figuring-out-no-spark-all-sudden-619697.html

Thread 9: Help me and others figure out ignition replacement part numbers
5 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...ignition-replacement-part-numbers-619941.html

Thread 10: Should top of regulator have current flowing through it?
0 Replies
http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...ld-spark-have-current-unit-itself-620781.html

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

I have DVA's, I have 2 stevens instrument ignition testers, I have 3 Merc-o-tronics testers & just today I was working on a mid 1980's evinrude 15 that had no spark on the top plug. took of the coil tested it according to specs in my stevens st-75 chart. 0 to 4 amp scale should be 1.4 max for this coil with a reverse polarity set to the CD setting. Coil tested ok for continuity Pri/sec. also. cleaned everything up good put it back no spark. went to my parts pile got a different coil BAM got spark. So learn all you can about Dva's, peak voltage, ohms etc. but don't forget to make sure your spark plug is gapped correctly & your fuel vent is open. "-)

So are you saying the tests didn't help and you got a false positive on that coil? (or whatever that saying is..lol)
Or did you switch plugs and that's what caused it?
And Yeah I suppose I should test my plugs gap next time I am tinkering with it and not go off what the last guy said...I was assuming they were all gapped good since he had recently replaced them and the motor did sound decent when I first got it (I think).

 

[clanton]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

You need a DAV adapter or a peakreading meter. Need to know the engine model number to ID engine, 120 is not enough info.

 

[BonairII]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Maybe I missed it, but what does "erratic idle" mean? Is your motor surging at idle?

Has a compression check been done on all cyls to make sure that they are within 10% of each other?

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

You need a DAV adapter or a peakreading meter. Need to know the engine model number to ID engine, 120 is not enough info.

DVA adapter is coming in the next week or so, for now I am just writing out my own "how to" and it should be pretty similar on all Johnson 120's I would think..but maybe not so the model number is J120TLCUR.

Maybe I missed it, but what does "erratic idle" mean? Is your motor surging at idle?

Has a compression check been done on all cyls to make sure that they are within 10% of each other?

Yes surging is a better word..thank you, I even asked in one (or two) of my threads what else to call it I think and that would be better.
Compression is good on all cylinders (I think around 130 but I would have to go read my other threads to get exact number).

And you didn't miss it in this thread at all.
This thread here wasn't really made to get help with this specific motor...BUT I will take and appreciate any help I can get though, just hadn't gotten any good traction on all those other threads (listed above) so had to start doing whatever I could on my own.

Eliminating ignition system component problems was my first step since I can "almost" do it myself...or will be able to soon with confidence.

Thanks.

 

[Watermann]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Ok, I watched that video in thread 6... wow that is way better than any words could describe, I take back what I said, you have done a ton trying to get help here. That sounded to me like the motor was only hitting on 2, maybe 3 cylinders or similar to the plug wires being mixed up. Maybe something has the firing order messed up power pack? One day I was running wot out on the river running perfect and my motor stumbled, coughed, died and wouldn't start up until it cooled down. Power pack went bad right then and there. Oh yeah was that stator melted any since you said some goop was on the power head.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Watermann,
Thanks for taking the time to watch that..and yeah I have spent a bit of time on here trying my best to give info...lol

I seriously thought / am thinking my threads are too detailed..with too much info and people just pass them up instead of reading it all..nothing wrong with that at all...everyone has their own life (except me I guess..lol) I will get the hang of it someday and find a good medium.


As for the Power pack as a possibility..I am putting my finger on that first only because of what I have read on here, sometimes it will work and sometimes it won't. Wife said for me to at least test it before buying a new (or used) one though.

Stator, I am not sure really what to look for on the Stator yet. I did post a lot of photos and hoped someone with a trained eye would see something or point out something for me to check. I would taste the goop on the power pack as a test but would also have to melt the stator a bit, taste that and taste some grease to determine which it was..lol (just kidding by the way).

What I don't get it why it did the surging as soon as I cleaned out the Jets on the carbs, which was the next thing I did after making the long video...I don't "think" it was surging when it was in the water but I know it was only running on two cylinders then (based on the tests I showed).

I could go on right now with other things but am trying to make this a short post...gonna work on that from now on...lol

Thanks again

p.s. I always do a TON of research before I post or ask questions..sometimes I get stuck or need to hear it in other terms..that's why I am re-writing the manual part of ignition tests...turning things like Charge Coil..into Stator since I didn't know what the charge coil was and thought there were parts I couldn't find at first...lol

Manual says to test the charge coil..if it doesn't pass then replace the Stator, same for Timber Base / Sensor Coil.
See how that could be kind of confusing for newbies who don;t know what those components are or look like really...lol

 

[Watermann]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

In the photo set thread 7 I didn't see anything that popped out at me in regards to the stator but those corroded bolts do not look good. Is that one corroded bolt have a flat ground strap held down? I would defiantly replace those bolts with stainless and clean up the corrosion, especially for that ground strap.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Yeah I plan on cleaning all them up / replacing them...I try to clean everything as I go. The lower cowling was just full of oily muck that took me over two hours to fully clean out already, but that's something I enjoy doing anyway.

Just ordered my DVA a few seconds ago...and actually did it through the same place Bonairll said he got his from..saw that he had ordered it and it arrived much sooner then the other place someone ordered from so that is why I went with them...thanks for saying how quick it arrived in an old DVA thread Bonairll.

 

[Besegen]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

As a fellow newb with little, yet recent, experience let me tell ya...don't get too hung up on "I just messed with this (jets in your case, new throttle cable in mine) right when it started and I think it had something to do with it". You may get lucky but you can burn months with that making you jump all over the place trying to figure out how it relates when it doesn't. Just find a troubleshoot in the manual or something and follow its steps down the line.

Two months ago I replaced the control cables. My motor ran good before I did and crappy when it even decided to start immediately after. I was hung up for awhile thinking it had to be that. Then assumed fuel and spent a couple weeks on that. Turns out nearly two months later (had a number of weather delays too though) I surrendered to the guide and it walked me right to a lousy testing power pack. I might suggest double not always stopping at a step when it seems like you've got it but go on a few and see what happens just in case.

Early on it says "disconnect the two yellow rectifier wires and if you now get spark the replace the rectifier". Well...it did, so I did. It still didn't get spark. Then I put the old one back on and suddenly it started. Put new one back on and it did now too. Continuity tested both the old and new and they are both 100% fine. Next day it quit firing again. Went through the process again and this time rectifier yellows did nothing. But I got to "disconnect the 'stop' wire from powerpack and if it fires the problem is in the 'stop circuit'". I did that and again...it immediately fired up. So again...aha! Cleaned and tightened all my grounds, checked shift and ignition switch and hooked the stop wire back up and fired right up. Again I thought I had it whooped. Cleaned up, packed up, and headed to the house but remembered I wanted to test the charge so went back to start it and guess what...no spark at all again...two minutes after closing everything up. Tore it all down again and this time removing the 'stop' wire did nothing to help. So finally I just did all the tests and in the end it was the powerpack. Tested bad in several categories...everything else tested great. Obviously was the pack the whole time. Just pure coincidence it happened to decide to work when it should have with those other tests.

 

[Watermann]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

You can't imagine the trouble a bad ground can cause in an electrical system. Oil and grease yeah I love to hate that stuff. I use a product called "Super Clean" and hook up a pressure wand to the hot side of my washing machine faucet. I can't believe how well it works on stubborn grease.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Re: This is a "how do I" thread regarding newbie questions on testing ignition system

Besegen..that is exactly why I am trying to learn this stuff instead of just paying someone to do it (well plus I can't afford to pay them but that's beside the point..lol).
I want to do all the tests..right down the line. Just got to learn how to do them before attempting them since I already know how much the stuff will cost if I touch something to something that shouldn't have been touched to that something...or something like that...lol

Watermann...I have yet to try Super Clean but sounds like I will now...been using Purple Power and have likes it fairly well.

On the cleaning note..I was spraying WD 40 (super strength or whatever the upper line is called) on another little motor to lube things up and noticed how well that stuff cleaned up all the grease and gunk as well..I am going to test that as a cleaner against my purple power some day now.