This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

[rebuilt]

:redface::redface:I've just finished building the hull and hooking up the controls. I was just about to come apart with anticipation. The motor had been run periodically on muffs over a span of 4 years. Each time with seafoam in the pre-mix. All the hours and hours of work to finish the resto of a '77 tri-hull. I dumped the oil in the gas tank, put in 6 gals of fresh gas, 6 oz of seafoam, launched the boat, only to have it sputter, cough, and die when I tried to accelerate. In my hurry to road test this project, I absently mindedly dumped a whole quart of penzoil 2 stroke oil into 6 gals of gas. That puts the mix somewhere in the range of 24 to 1 ratio. A far cry from the 50 to 1 it's supposed to get. I need to mention the VRO unit was ditched in the build. The conversion accomplished with the help of this board. A straight Johnson fuel pump does the work now.So.... here comes the dumb question from a 2 stroke outboard newb-rookie. I'm a pretty good shade tree but a 2 stroke outboard newb to the max. Would that super rich oil ratio, which is really double what it should be, cause this motor to refuse to run at anything more than about 2000 rpm under load? It ran great at idle and up to about 3 grand on the muffs, with the right ratio, but when I loaded her up with all that oil in the pre-mix, it would not run out at all and came back with wet, blue (the color or the oil) plugs, all three plugs were the same, coated in wet, blue liquid. The plugs are the recomended Champion QL77JC4. Can you say duh...... I was ready to pull the carbs down and go through them, with the multi-year span since it had been run hard, being the main consideration behind a move like that. But if I can avoid going through these carbs, I would love it. The kits are about $20 each, so I was just going to disassemble, clean, and reassemble.The budget is so tight. Whoever did it last used kits with rubber bowl gaskets, instead of the 1 use paper type, so I was going to just takem apart and cleanem up. Yes, I do have a J/E factory manual for this motor. Do the carb gurus think that getting the mix right will allow her to run right, under load? Or should I still plan on pulling the carbs down for a cleanup, a task I would avoid if at all possible. What say the J/E motor heads that work this board?? Thanks in advance, Kevin:redface:

 

[Rick.]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Not so dumb really. I would expect it to run just fine with the richer mix to be honest. By putting in the oil then the gas I wonder if oil got into the hose that wasn't mixed with the gas yet? perhaps the best thing would be to disconnect the hose at the pump and then pump the bulb a bit just to flush the line. Then re-connect and let it idle until you sure the gas has gone thru the carbs. and give it a whirl. Best of luck. Rick.

 

[steelespike]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

A motor reving on muffs doesn't mean much except that it runs.
Also shouldn't rev it over 1500 or so or you could end up with a runaway.
Were the plugs oily blue? I have a feeling they may just be flooded after all the gas is probably blue now.
You might see if it responds to a little choke. Also try squeezing the primer bulb.
Disconnect line to the carb and crank the motor,.Gas should pulse strongly from the pump.

 

[dwco5051]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

The break in on this engine when new or just rebuilt was to mix 1 pint per six gallons int the fuel tankf or the breaking period with the VRO working. Thus it was operating at up to a 24/1 ratio. This should not cause the problems you mentioned. Your other replies so far have given you good advice. As mentioned above the I am guessing that it wasn't trailered after putting the oil in followed by the gas and the fuel wasn't mixed enough and you got almost straight oil when you started it.

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

The extra oil won't hurt it at all. Infact, there's no need to even go through the carbs on it. Every day I log on this site, I read about a lot of un-necessary carb rebuilds. Really, the only time it is necessary to go through a carb to rebuild, is if a motor has sat for 10 or more years and the oil gummed up real bad. OMC has built the best carbs an engine could possibly have. Many times again and again, I have brought home old antique outboards and fired them up and ran them with untouched carbs. It's usually the igntion sytems that need attention and once that is fixed up, these motors run good. In a motor that runs a lot of time at WOT, it's actually better to run them richer than 50:1 simply because the parts are working harder. So don't worry, running a little extra oil won't hurt it. Up until 1964, OMC actually recemended 24:1 on their motors and those are motors with all needle bearings set up.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Although the engine has been run periodically in the past four years, it has simply been run on a flushette. To me, this spells out that it hasn't been run at full throttle for any length of time for that four year period.

Actually this is good that you didn't run it at full throttle as that scenario could result in a runaway engine which in turn would result in having connecting rods flying out the sides of the crankcase.

I strongly suspect that if nothing else, the high speed jets, which are located in the bottom center portion of each carburetor float chamber, are fouled, clogged, gummed. Remove, dismantle, clean, and rebuild those carburetors, cleaning the high speed jets manually with a piece of single strand steel wire.

Note that the rubber gaskets are an upgrade from the old paper ones. They are treated neoprene which will not be affected by the cheap fuel we're now forced to use.

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Ya know, I can't be sure if they were oily or just wet. It ran so poorly, they never did burn off and dry out. Can't choke it. It's got the idle enrichment solenoid. It stays locked out by the high idle lever on the control, unless in neutral. Will definitely check fuel flow from pump to carbs tomorrow. Thanks for the reply. KR

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Thats kinda what I expected Joe, I've read quite a few posts about dormant engines that needed some gentle carb work. I'll take them apart, and clean them up. I've got a gallon of carb soak, the kind you soak stuff overnight in. The J/E manual says not to soak these carbs with that kind of cleaner. So I won't use that stuff. Gumout spray or equivalent, I guess. Does anyone know the float measurement? Or where I could find it? Since I've got the good gaskets, I see no point in buying kits, which have that little cardboard measuring device to set the float with. Will keep you guys posted. Thanks for your time all who responded. KR

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

In my experience, "gentle carb work" is really only needed in motors that sat for a lot of years and the gas sits in them and gets fouled. I have three motors here that ran fine once I put fresh gas to them. These motors are each 50 years old and most likely still have the original parts in the carbs. On one, I did have to pull the low speed needle and put a shop vac on the hole to remove something, but the end result was good. Now, this is a motor that was built in 1958 and was laying in the back of a boat when I got it. The flywheel and starter assembly was laying separate and the points had rust on the arms. LOL Then again, 1958 was when they built good motors.

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

When I moved the motor a couple of years ago, the gas stunk like old paint thinner. It had been about a year since I had idled it on muffs. I really suspect trash in the carbs. I've got hot blue spark on all 3 cyls. After the initial poor showing on 1st launch, I tried to run it again, this time with the vent on the fuel tank OPEN. Told ya I was a newb. That's when I remembered the overkill with the 2 stroke oil. Last night, I got the mix back to 50:1, cleared the lines, checked for pulsing fuel out of the new fuel pump, and all looked to be in order. Now it runs worse than before. #1 shows a pretty steady miss, #2 isn't firing at all, and # is carrying the whole load, firing fine. It smoothes out for a second or two after giving it a shot with the primer solenoid. I'm guessing that trailering, launching, attempting to run it loosened up some trash and now I've got some blockages internally. After studying the Johnson manual, I see the recommended float drop to be between 1 1/8 and 1 5/8 inch, carb in upright position. Can I set this without the little OMC float gauge? That adjustment is to be made carb inverted. OMC part #324891. No one here locally has one. Can't I set the float just using the float drop measurement if necessary? I'm hoping that by being very carefull with the disassembly, I won't change the float measurement. I plan to re-use everything, unless something is worn, nicked or broken. Thanks. Will keep you posted on the progress

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

(Carburetor Float Setting)
(J. Reeves)

With the carburetor body held upside down, the float being viewed from the side, adjust the float so that the free end of the float (the end opposite the hinge pin) is ever so slightly higher (just ever so slightly off level) than the other end. And when viewed from the end, make sure it is not cocked.

Have you cleaned those caburetors yet, and manually cleaned the high speed jets?

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

If your gas has fouled, then it is time to pull it apart and rebuild. It sounds like you have some bad nasties in there

 

[mstahl1171]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

The extra oil won't hurt it at all. Infact, there's no need to even go through the carbs on it. Every day I log on this site, I read about a lot of un-necessary carb rebuilds. Really, the only time it is necessary to go through a carb to rebuild, is if a motor has sat for 10 or more years and the oil gummed up real bad. OMC has built the best carbs an engine could possibly have. Many times again and again, I have brought home old antique outboards and fired them up and ran them with untouched carbs. It's usually the igntion sytems that need attention and once that is fixed up, these motors run good. In a motor that runs a lot of time at WOT, it's actually better to run them richer than 50:1 simply because the parts are working harder. So don't worry, running a little extra oil won't hurt it. Up until 1964, OMC actually recemended 24:1 on their motors and those are motors with all needle bearings set up.

I completely agree....Gentle Work is all these old carbs need for the most part.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Just exactly what is meant by "Gentle Work? One either tears a carbuetor apart to correct a problem within it or one does not. I would assume that "Gentle Work indicates that one should not lose their temper and bounce that carburetor of the nearest concrete block wall but should rather take their time and be gentle with it.

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

LOL Joe. Yes, that would be correct. Handle it, as though it's made of cotton balls.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

I hate that bug (grin).

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

I bought an adjustable spark tester last night, just checked the spark and compression. Good news. Spark is easy 1/2", hot and blue, on all 3. Compression is 150 to 160 on all 3, engine cold, throttle plates closed. Carbs are coming off this afternoon, as soon I post this update. She's just about guaranteed to run right after I get these carbs cleaned up. Oh, BTW Joe, you're archived post on tilt trim gauge wiring was a huge help. All my gauges work thanks to archived posts. Will keep you posted. I'm really hopefull about this now, with the spark and compression checking out good. Thanks again, this board is an absolute requisite for DIY'ers. As a side note, this engine was purchased used, and hauled home from 200 miles away in a little flat bed trailer. On it's side, palletized. I guess, in retrospect, it's a pure wonder it ran at all. Thanks again, KR

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Yeah Joe........ small tools and a soft touch. No sledge hammers allowed....

 

[patrickj]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

i cant believe it would run bad because of to much oil... i run my 125 at 40ish to 1 and it runs fine, id imagine 24:1 would just smoke like a freight train

 

[rebuilt]

Re: This may be the dumbest question you've ever read on this board-"89 J60 TLCE

Update. #2 wouldn't fire. That's because the high speed orifice in the bottom of the fuel bowl was plugged solid with brown goo. Also, the float needle on #2 was varnished up and wouldn't slide in it's brass seat.. Read...same effect as a stuck float. All carbs were disassembled and cleaned. As a possible help to someone else who needs to manually clear the high speed jets; do you remember the old single strand solid copper phone wiring that phones in houses were wired up with? It came sheathed in a plastic wrap that contained about 4 separate wires. That little solid copper wire, stripped of insulation, fits perfect all the way up the high speed jet, clear up to the idle speed orifice in the top of the carb housing. So, after putting it back together, it started and idled out without even using the idle advance lever on the control handle. A couple of bumps from the primer solenoid and it fired right up and idled out smooth. I haven't been able to put it in the water yet, but it sounds fantastic on the muffs. Being careful not to run it over 1500-2000 rpms. Which is kinda difficult now, it's so sensitive to the slightest movement of the idle advance lever after the cleanup. Back in the day, I had a Kawasaki in line 3, a triple two stroker street rocket. This engine sounds just like my bike did. Healthy. Will let ya know how it runs out, after we get to launch it. Thanks KR