Time for a new motor?

[thegipper]

I ordered the head gasket and it will be here tomorrow. I cleaned up the head surface and the cylinder block surface the best I could. Both are very smooth and I used a 4" machinist square to check for flatness/warpage. It all looks good to me. I closely inspected for cracks or any other damage, everything looks normal so thats good.

Hopefully I get some good compression numbers after the head gasket and it runs good again. If it does, I'll work on the lower unit issues and find out why water was not flowing to begin with.

One last thing, the head bolts are supposed to be torqued at 20 ft/lbs correct? Start with the middle bolt on one side, than the other size than zig zag making my way up and down the head correct?

Thanks

 

[oldboat1]

216-240 in lbs (20 ft. lbs/240 in lbs would be max torque -- would do less than that initially, then retorque after running a bit). I would resurface the cover -- easy to do.

 

[racerone]

Look very closely at the water punp and vanes.-----When the motor is NOT RUNNING the vanes block flow from the hose .

 

[thegipper]

So I should do like 18 ft/lbs initially then after a few cycles, go back and do the 20 ft/lbs?

Racer, I went back out and checked and I think you are right. I just assumed water would always flow up since I've seen many other motors with water flowing out of the pee hole even when not running when hooked up to the hose.

I posted a couple pictures of the impeller, housing and bottom plate. The housing and bottom plate definitely look worn, could that be the cause of no water going up into the motor? If you were me, what would you replace? I was thinking a new impeller housing, impeller, bottom plate and the two rubber grommets in the impeller housing. The impeller really doesn't look bad but I hate to not replace it and it being the problem.

What about the o ring/ seal thing on the impeller housing where the drive shaft goes through, how important is that?

Of course none of this matter is the new head gasket doesn't fix the low compression problem. Obviously the majority of compression loss was because of the failing gasket, I just hope the compression is good enough and equal enough between the cylinders for the motor to still be usable. I really, really don't want to have to get a new motor!

 

[thegipper]

Ok guys I got some great news. I put the new head gasket on, torqued it to spec and checked compression. 110 on all three cylinders! I know 110 isn't "great" but at least its even. I proceeded to see if it would start keeping in mind the LU is off and I would have to shut it down right away. It fired up instantly like it used to so thats good.

I need to order parts related to why it wasn't pumping water, or at least well. This is what I'm thinking, please let me know if I'm forgetting something:

Impeller
Impeller housing
Impeller housing rubber grommets (2)
Impeller base plate
Seal for the drive shaft on the impeller housing or is this not critical to water flow?
O ring for drive shaft

Because my LU gets water in it, and I now know its from the drive shaft seals. I'm going to replace:

drive shaft bearings housing (comes with new seals in it).
New drain plugs / seals

What am I forgetting????

 

[ondarvr]

The water pump kit should have everything you need in it.

​Compression gauges can read very differently from each other, sometimes significantly, 110 on yours could be 125 on the next one, so unless you know how your gauge reads from experience it's hard to tell exactly how what it is, but at least they're even.

 

[thegipper]

My push on tester reads 120 on all cylinders.

How important is that driveshaft seal that is part of the cover on the impeller housing? Mine looks a little old and worn and you cannot buy just that seal. that cover is expensive. I found a new old stock housing for 13 bucks shipped. It looks like that seal that is part of the cover is not sold individually. If it wouldn't effect the flow of water, I wont worry about it.

I am hoping to order all of the parts tonight so please let me know. Thanks!

 

[thegipper]

It all depends on how deep they are, and if you want to rebuild it.

​As mentioned, pull the head off and see what it looks like. A blown head gasket can stop water flow, but typically only when it's running, continuing to run it in this condition can do the kind of damage you saw on the camera. When the head gasket starts to leak the exhaust can leak into the water jacket and over power the water pump, this can stop water flow and cause the spitting you saw in the pee stream.

The more I think about everything that happened, the more I think you are 100% correct. I bet my impeller and everything was fine but the blown head gasket was keeping water from properly flowing. When I first installed the pee hole it would sputter but a good amount of water would still come out. As I started having problems with the motor (starting/idling as the blown head gasket got worse) is when the pee stream got worse and worse.

Plus like Racer said, the impeller actually blocks water flow when it is not running so when it is hooked up to the ears, water will not flow up into the jacket like it does on some motors.

Of course this was after I just ordered 150 dollars worth of parts. I wonder if I should try putting it all back together the way it is and see if it pee's fine again? I still need to install the new bearing housing/seals for the drive shaft since the seals are leaking. I know it never hurts to put in new parts even if the old parts are still working.

 

[thegipper]

Still waiting on parts but I did test water flow through the engine. I made an adapter to hook up my garden hose to the copper water tubes since the LU is off. Water flows fine and comes out the pee hole like normal.

hHopefully the new parts will be here soon so Ican get back on the water!

 

[oldboat1]

Don't run on muffs (test water pump in the lake or buried about half way up the shaft in a barrel of water -- idle only if the latter). Know from manual testing water can get up the tube to the powerhead. Now just need to test the pump -- can't do that on muffs.

Progress!

 

[thegipper]

Don't run on muffs (test water pump in the lake or buried about half way up the shaft in a barrel of water -- idle only if the latter). Know from manual testing water can get up the tube to the powerhead. Now just need to test the pump -- can't do that on muffs.

Progress!

Absolutely. I won't be popping the champagne until its on the lake and spitting water like normal. I just did the test to make sure there wasn't any kind of blockage in the water tubes/jacket.

I removed the bearing housing today after work. The bottom seal in the housing was torn and allowing water to get in the LU. Also the rollers in the bearing had some pitting and were definitely worn. I'm glad I'm replacing the entire housing with new seals.

To be continued!

 

[boobie]

Keep us posted...............

 

[thegipper]

I put her all back together today and decided to do a barrel test. Just a reminder, I tried starting it when the LU was off and it immediately fire right up like it used to. I turned it off right away.

I go to start it today, and it wont flipping start!?!?!?!!? It just sputters and tries to start. I checked the spark, nice blue spark jumps 7/16" gap. .Tested compression again, same as before (maybe slightly less but even still). I primed the bulb and it was rock hard. Fresh gas in tank and vent open. Spark plugs look new still.

when I was having trouble starting it before, I was able to get it running by putting it in forward and about 3/4 throttle (almost like it was flooding?). I was able to get it running today by doing the same thing but if I try idling it down, it dies. It then struggles to restart again unless i do the throttle trick. When i took the plugs off to do the compression test, all looked wet with gas on them. Battery is dead now so I need to let it recharge. I double checked and made sure everything is plugged back in.

Why on earth would it run perfectly just two days ago and fire right up. It even started today before I put the LU back on! I turned it off right away again of course. It is much colder today but again, it fired up this morning!

I cannot believe in a 2 month span this motor went from running absolutely perfect to the starter solenoid failing, the rectifier failing, the head gasket failing and now it wont start?? This motor used to always fire up instantly no matter how cold it was in the 8 or so times I used it.

To say I'm frustrated is the understatement of the year. I'm reading to throw this thing off a cliff. Does anyone have any suggestions on this?

 

[thegipper]

I forgot to mention, water comes out of the pee hole totally fine now so thats good.

I did replace the drive shaft bearing housing w/seals and pressure tested it. It holds pressure now so at least my water in the LU issue should be fixed. Now if I can just get the dang thing to start!

The battery was kind of low when I tried starting it but it was cranking fine so I'm assuming a semi weak battery shouldn't effect it starting as long as it cranks fine.

I'll make a video in a little bit of me trying to start it.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

 

[thegipper]

I was able to get it started again but only if I give it a bunch of throttle. It won't idle down very far at all so I have to leave it in gear. It also is smoking like crazy while it is running like this, it's like its running super rich. I never touched any of the adjustments (slow speed idle etc). The only thing I've tried adjust is the throttle cable.

One of times I had it running, I wound it all the way up, full throttle. It blew a bunch of smoke out but then the smoke went away. I was able to throttle completely down and it was idling nice. I shut it off after 10 minutes and tried starting it again, it started back up right away. Waited another 10 minutes and it wouldn't start again unless I gave it a bunch of throttle.

How on earth can so many things go wrong all at the same time??? This is unbelievable....

 

[interalian]

If you rev it wide open in neutral you may well need a new motor. Bad things can happen to 2-strokes at high RPM unloaded.

 

[thegipper]

I cannot get it to start in neutral. It will only start in forward or reverse if I give it a bunch of throttle. When I am revving it up, it is when it is in gear. When I did really rev it out, I slowly backed down on the throttle and after a few minutes, it was running normal again. It was idling fine and it seemed good again. I have not been able to reproduce that again even doing the exact same thing. Can the plugs be fouled even though they look new still?

So at this point, I can pretty reliably get it started when I put it in gear and start it with 3/4 throttle. I cannot throttle it down much as it just dies. It doesn't want to idle. I made a note out of where my slow speed settings were on all three carbs in case i need to go back to those settings. I then returned them all to 1 1/2 turns out after lightly seated. it really didn't make any difference at all.

when I do get it running, it is smoking more than normal like it is running rich.

I don't understand why a blown headgasket would change the way it idles. I don't understand why when I started a few days ago after i fixed the head gasket it fired up instantly. I don't understand why it started this morning instantly with the LU off.

I really need help on this one guys. I am beyond frustrated.

 

[racerone]

I believe low speed needles are to be 5/8 th turn out from lightly seated.

 

[thegipper]

Ok I'll try that tomorrow.

Any idea why it would be running so rich even when I throttle up? I took the cover carbs and it looks like the butterfly's and everything is working the way it should.

Not sure if this means anything but it will never start using the choke. The choke seems to make it worse, like its adding even more fuel to an already rich system.

 

[thegipper]

And for the life of me, I don't know how any of this could have changed or got messed up from a head gasket failing. This motor started on the first crank every single time I used it until all the issues started.