Time to be worried?

[JASinIL2006]

Hi all, I could use some advice. I bought a used boat from a Marine Sales company in early February. At the time of sale, we did all the paperwork to have the title for the trailer and boat put in our name, and for the boat to be registered. Part of the sale included a fee for the paperwork to be couriered to the state agencies involved in titling, registering, etc.

For about two months, I received no paperwork for either the trailer or the boat. I contacted to seller, who said he'd check on the paperwork. I wasn't too worried - I live in Illinois and the DNR reported (on their website) a delay in processing titles and registrations. I didn't hear anything back from the seller, so I emailed him and asked what the status was of our paperwork. At the same time, I emailed the Dept. of Natural Resources with the hull identification number, and they reported no boat with that ID in their system.

I then called the seller, who insisted he had checked and the boat paperwork was 'in the system.' He was going to the DNR early the next week and would check again. (He had no explanation of why the DNR had reported to me that they had no record of the boat.) A day or two later, a license plate and registration tag for the trailer arrived by mail. A handwritten form that was datestamped April 23 accompanied the plate. I assumed that he had misplaced the paperwork and that he had hurriedly submitted after my phone call.

Just today, almost a month after I contacted him first by email, and three months after we bought and paid for the boat, I again inquired of the DNR about any record of the boat, and they again said they had no record.

I've emailed the seller with the new information, and I plan to call tomorrow to talk with him. I am wondering if it's time I look for some legal representation, or if there is more I can do. I don't want to rush to judge the seller, but I have pretty good information that he hasn't been entirely truthful with me about the paperwork and its status. I checked the seller out on the Better Business Bureau site and there are no complaints against him.

Any thoughts on what else I might do? Should I give it more time? Get a lawyer?

Thanks.

 

[64osby]

Re: Time to be worried?

I would send one more communication, allowing him the opportunity to rectify the situation. In the communication let him know the next action will be to seek legal remedy's if he chooses not to respond or provide proof of forward moving action on his part.

Sounds like you found a lazy dealer. Hopefully a kick in the can will set him in motion.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Time to be worried?

IL has been known to take 2-3 months to process the paperwork.
So even if the dealer sent the paperwork in promptly, it could still be a while.

This IL issue has come up countless times in the last few years.

 

[lakelover]

Re: Time to be worried?

I guess I'm lucky. I can't say much good about NY gov't, but I do have to say that all the dealings I've had with DMV has been finalized in a matter of days. Good luck, the paperwork could be sitting on a desk in some office. They probably laid off too many workers.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Time to be worried?

The biggest concern would be the whereabouts of the Title to the boat . . . If you can get that back into your hands, then you can control things yourself.

Did you get a Title to the trailer, when the registration & plate came?

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Time to be worried?

I'd be less concerned and more patient, but I also purchased a small aluminum v-hull boat and small trailer (from a private seller) about a week after I bought the bigger boat. I sent in the small trailer and boat paperwork myself, and got a title for the trailer (from the Sec. of State) and a certificate of ownership for the boat (from the DNR) about two weeks later. Illinois is very delinquent in processing the registration stuff for boats (semi-annual fees and stickers), but they seem to move a bit quicker on the ownership stuff.

tpenfield, the plate and registration for the trailer has come, but not the title. I am concerned about the title to the boat. In my more panicked moments, I've wondered if this guy sold me a boat for which he didn't have a clear title... When boat shopping, I knew enough to be alert to that if I was buying from a private boat owner, but I didn't think I'd have to worry about that with a dealer.

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: Time to be worried?

JA - Did you pay chash for the boat or is this a finance situation? If it were a cash sale i think they would have signed the title over to you when you handed them cash!

Maybe its different in Ill then here in Ohio.

Just asking!

 

[jmarty10]

Re: Time to be worried?

Did you actually see them sign over title into your name. Do you have a bill of sale and copy of the title and other paperwork processed? I'd call the DNR again and ask them if they have records of the boat being titled previously and what name it was in. I wouldnt go the legal route just yet but it may be time to start being pretty nasty. Dealing with the state and those currency exchanges is a supreme PITA.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Time to be worried?

I think it's past time to be worried.

If you can, I'd go down there in person and camp out, and avoid the run-around and stalling. Don't accept that "so and so who handles this is out." Chances are, he's hiding in the back,. Truth is, anyone there can pull your "jacket" or "deal" and show you what's in it. Or what's not.

I know with used cars, dealers often (but shouldn't) sell cars for which they don't have the title, because they owe their floor planner or the auction company. They get caught short other payments they were counting on fall through. So they stall until they get some money from "somewhere" to get your title. You may be in line with others.

Check your DNR about the legality of selling a boat when you do not possess the title.

Keep careful records of all your calls and emails. And when dealing with these types, nice, patient understanding guys finish last.

If you get into a legal tangle with them, they will hide behind different corporate names. Do not rely on anything they say in that regard--names on invoices, signs, etc. mean nothing. I have fought the slimey car dealers on this.

Do not take any legal advice from the web and don't think someone else's experience will be like yours, especially when the states are different.

Good luck. If they are robbing Peter to pay Paul, you want to be Paul.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Time to be worried?

81 Checkmate, we did pay cash. My understanding is that, if this were an individual selling me the boat, that's what should happen and that was the first question I asked whenever I found a boat to look at.

Since this was purchase from a dealer, though, they handle (or were supposed to handle...) all the paperwork. I know that when I've bought cars from dealers, they handled it similarly, and I received temporary title in the form of the receipts from the sale. (Along with temp license plates, which I did get from this dealer.)

I'm trying to be patient, and I generally tend (to a fault) to give others the benefit of the doubt. I don't think the seller is a bad guy, I'm just concerned about the amount of time and his vagueness about the details each time I've communicated with him.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Time to be worried?

the "vagueness on details" is a sure sign of a problem. You need to move in on the guy.

 

[etracer68]

Re: Time to be worried?

I like the way the state of WI does things, as far as boats. You go right online to the dnr, and fill in the paper work, and mail the title in. You then print out, that you paid online, and done. I never waited more then 2 weeks, for title or Reg card. As far as trailer, go right to the DMV, and done.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: Time to be worried?

I like the way NY does it. Like in WI, get forms on line, fill them in, take forms and sale paperwork and old title for the boat and / or trailer, to any MV Dept, pay the fees in cash, check or credit card and walk out w/ reg stickers and reg paperwork. The title shows up in the mail 3 weeks later. DONE..............

Took a whopping 15 miutes in the local Southeast, NY DMV..... And the counter folks smile and talk to you in the process. Beacuse of the ease in NY, I do all my own registrations and such, never paying the dealer a "fee" to do it for me, making me lose control of the process. (plus, I'm cheap)

Very simple if you have the ALL paperwork in order. If you are missing anything at all or something is filled even slightly wrong, though, all bets are off.

I would surely be squeezing the salesman for ALL the documentaion you are owed and delivered to you ASAP. The longer it goes on, the uglier it'll get. I would check the local regulations on dealer delivery of documentation and go from there. There must be some kind of time frame they are required to meet.

 

[lakelover]

Re: Time to be worried?

I like the way NY does it. Like in WI, get forms on line, fill them in, take forms and sale paperwork and old title for the boat and / or trailer, to any MV Dept, pay the fees in cash, check or credit card and walk out w/ reg stickers and reg paperwork. The title shows up in the mail 3 weeks later. DONE..............

Took a whopping 15 miutes in the local Southeast, NY DMV..... And the counter folks smile and talk to you in the process. Beacuse of the ease in NY, I do all my own registrations and such, never paying the dealer a "fee" to do it for me, making me lose control of the process. (plus, I'm cheap)

Very simple if you have the ALL paperwork in order. If you are missing anything at all or something is filled even slightly wrong, though, all bets are off.

I would surely be squeezing the salesman for ALL the documentaion you are owed and delivered to you ASAP. The longer it goes on, the uglier it'll get. I would check the local regulations on dealer delivery of documentation and go from there. There must be some kind of time frame they are required to meet.

in NY - for cars, boats, trailers you can renew on line if no changes in the info. Fill out a few info fields, pay with credit card, and the reg's show up in the mail a few days later. Titles take a little longer though.

Good advice, you should bug people and try to get it cleared up as early in the process as you can. Unless they are doing everything by hand, I don't see why it should take weeks.

Like Home Cookin' says, start riding the guy & look out for #1 in this case.

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: Time to be worried?

JA - thats the way its handled here with cars, not sure on boat dealers. Never had that kind of money to buy a boat at a dealer.

So you have the bill of sale with all the info on it + the temp tags and all.

I would show up tomorrow morning at the dealer and ask to see your salesman's manager, dont talk to the salesman but Go over his head. If that dont work seak a higher person untill you get an answer in person and dont leave untill you get the answer that you are looking for.

If that doesn't work than i would look into a lawyer.........

Hope it works out for ya JA.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Time to be worried?

Thanks for the input so far... we live an hour and a half from the dealer, so it's not super-convenient to just pop in on him, but it looks like that might be the next step.

81 Checkmate, this is a used boat, and we probably paid a bit more for it than if we bought it from the previous owner, but we thought the trade-off would be freedom from many of the hassles associated with titling and registering the boat, among other things. That is rather ironic, I suppose, given our current predicament...

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: Time to be worried?

JA ? You would think that going to the dealer would be a hassle free experience as apposed to dealing with the guy wanting to get rid of his problems. I feel your pain?.. New boat and you can?t even get it out on the water to enjoy it.

Just maybe it will show up in the mail in the morning.

Good luck to ya and let us no the out come.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: Time to be worried?

Time for an update: after several more phone conversations with our dealer, it's become quite clear he is not being truthful with us. He keeps offering excuses why we haven't received title and registration for the boat, but what he tells us does not match what the DNR has told us. I am thinking he sold us a boat that he doesn't have title to...

Whatever the case, we can no longer believe anything this guy says. We will contact an attorney tomorrow and see what legal recourse we have. I'd still just prefer to have boat free and clear, but if that can't happen soon, I want him to return the money we paid him and pay for things we've done to the boat and trailer (e.g., adding brakes to the trailer, buying a custom cover) that we believed was ours.

I am not a vindictive person, but I want for him to be uncomfortable until thing gets resolved.

 

[25thmustang]

Re: Time to be worried?

JA, did the dealer state they have done everything on their end, and it's the DNRs fault? Or are they claiming the paperwork has stalled at their end?

 

[tpenfield]

Re: Time to be worried?

Time for an update: after several more phone conversations with our dealer, it's become quite clear he is not being truthful with us. He keeps offering excuses why we haven't received title and registration for the boat, but what he tells us does not match what the DNR has told us. I am thinking he sold us a boat that he doesn't have title to...

Whatever the case, we can no longer believe anything this guy says. We will contact an attorney tomorrow and see what legal recourse we have. I'd still just prefer to have boat free and clear, but if that can't happen soon, I want him to return the money we paid him and pay for things we've done to the boat and trailer (e.g., adding brakes to the trailer, buying a custom cover) that we believed was ours.

I am not a vindictive person, but I want for him to be uncomfortable until thing gets resolved.

Check out the consumer protection agencies in your state, and perhaps attorney general's office. They may be able to pursue matters at little/no cost to you.

I got my bet placed on the dealer had no title.