Time to give up?

[aborgman]

last year I was given a free 195x Johnson JW-10 Seahorse that wasn't running, and hadn't been run in probably 10 years.

Last spring the coils were replaced, timing set, carb rebuilt, etc., etc.

After using it several times with no issue, it died one day while fishing. Having started the motor 20 times already that day, it just refused to start. Not even a sneeze. It was running fine before I shut it down 20 minutes previously, but now wouldn't even act like it would start.

After paddling home, I pulled the motor off and set it aside.

It sat all winter, and I'm just getting to it.

Pulled plugs - plugs looked pretty good. I'd call them carbon fouled if they were coming out of a four-stroke, but they don't seem bad for a two stroke.

Pulled the flywheel and checked/reset timing - one cylinder was a tiny bit off. Spun it with drill - still nothing.

Checked spark again - not getting any (or so weak as to be invisible) spark.

Pulled coils - coils have continuity, and look good.

I replaced the points, condensers, and spark plug wires. It now has 1yr old coils, and everything else electrical is new. Re-timed. When spinning with drill the spark looks good.

Out of desperation I tried switching the plug wires - when I did that, it behaved like I expected... coughing and backfiring like a motor with the plug wires on backward... but with the plug wires in the correct position, nothing. Not a sneeze, or a pop, or even a tiny puff of smoke.


On to checking the compression - after checking with my electric drill at full power the numbers are:

65psi top cylinder
70psi bottom cylinder

Which are a good bit worse than what I saw last year when it was running (~80psi).

Is this the likely culprit? Or is something electrical still a possibility?

Stuck ring? Head gasket?

Suggestions?

Or is it just time to get rid of this thing? I've never had a motor of any type be so exasperating...

--
aborgman

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Time to give up?

disconnect the kill wires, and try it. the 2 black wires running to each coil.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Time to give up?

Cranking the engine with the drill...... I assume that you're setting the choke on the carburetor.

If so, what do the spark plugs look like.... dry fluffy black, soaking wet with fuel, white, no trace of fuel, etc?

The points should be set as follows:

(Point Setting Of Magneto Models)
(J. Reeves)

Set the points as follows. Have the flywheel key aligned with the fiber rubber portion of the ignition points. Adjust the gap so that a .020 gauge will pass thru but a .022 will not. Should there be any question of the points being dirty (touching the contact with your finger would cause them to be dirty), clean them with a small brush and acetone or lacquer thinner.

NOTE: Should the operating cam have a small portion on it with the word "SET" imprinted, align this portion with the fiber rubbing portion instead of the flywheel key.

Spark plugs should be Champion J6C plugs gapped at .030

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

disconnect the kill wires, and try it. the 2 black wires running to each coil.

Now THAT is something I never thought of... Isn't that basically just disconnecting the ground connection on the secondary coil? Seems like the plug wouldn't be able to fire in that case because the secondary ground wouldn't be sharing a ground with the plugs. I'll put it on the list to try though...

So far my plans are:

1) Disconnect kill wires and try it.
2) Clean plug insulator surface to make sure no arcing along plug surface.
3) Pour some seafoam deepcreep in the cylinders and let sit (stuck ring?).
4) Pull the head and look at the head gasket.

--
aborgman

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

Cranking the engine with the drill...... I assume that you're setting the choke on the carburetor.

If so, what do the spark plugs look like.... dry fluffy black, soaking wet with fuel, white, no trace of fuel, etc?

At this point I would say they look like normal two stroke plugs (a little black, but not real carbon-ed up) - and are wet with fuel.

The points should be set as follows:

(Point Setting Of Magneto Models)
(J. Reeves)

Points were set at .020" with a feeler gauge, and then adjusted using a DMM and the following procedure:

http://www.outboard-boat-motor-repa...on 3 HP 1952-1967 Ignition System Tune-up.htm

--
aborgman

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Time to give up?

Tash is not saying to disconnect the ground at the actual coils. There are two black wires leading down from the timer base under the flywheel that lead to a push button kill switch. He's saying to simply disconnect one or both of those wires to eliminate the kill switch in case it may be shorted.

Setting the points..... Better to incorporate the KISS method as I suggested.

 

[wavrider]

Re: Time to give up?

KISS method, something taught in the military for years, with a few opther acronyms thrown in for good measure.

If you reversed the spark plug wires and it popped and bacxk fired you are getting fire, although possibly weak fire.

If you have your points set, correctly, and the coils are firing though weak, even if a year old replace the coils, they are nothing but a step up transformer per say and if they are not stepping up then you will not get enough high voltage to fire the plug correctly.

Use a spark tester to see what spark you are getting, I believe you allready said you did that once before.

Use a spray bottle and spray some pre-mix into the carb to see if it fires, if it does not fire then pull the plugs and put some directly into the cyl. re-install the plugs and se if it fires then.

The compression reading is good enough to run.

Simple 2 stroke, if you are in time, points set and clean, coils firing, compression in the cylinder it will run as long as you get air and gas in the cylinder. If it is not running you are missing one of the aforementioned items.

Process of elimination. find which one you are missing and fix it.

 

[F_R]

Re: Time to give up?

That motor does not have a kill button, does it? That blows the kill wires theory.

I suspect the head gasket is blown between the cylinders. Just a guess.

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

Tash is not saying to disconnect the ground at the actual coils. There are two black wires leading down from the timer base under the flywheel that lead to a push button kill switch. He's saying to simply disconnect one or both of those wires to eliminate the kill switch in case it may be shorted.

Setting the points..... Better to incorporate the KISS method as I suggested.

Ummm.. that motor doesn't HAVE a kill switch... so I'm guessing that isn't the problem.

--
aborgman

 

[Chinewalker]

Re: Time to give up?

I agree with FR - check the head gasket. Compression is down from previous. Shows spark but doesn't run. Ran good and then didn't, with no drop-off. Points to the head gasket...
- Scott

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

If you reversed the spark plug wires and it popped and bacxk fired you are getting fire, although possibly weak fire.

If you have your points set, correctly, and the coils are firing though weak, even if a year old replace the coils, they are nothing but a step up transformer per say and if they are not stepping up then you will not get enough high voltage to fire the plug correctly.

Use a spark tester to see what spark you are getting, I believe you allready said you did that once before.

I've checked it with my spark tester (which I don't like) and without a plug to see what kind of gap it will jump. It'll jump a 1/4"-1/2" gap.

Use a spray bottle and spray some pre-mix into the carb to see if it fires, if it does not fire then pull the plugs and put some directly into the cyl. re-install the plugs and se if it fires then.

Tried that and got nothing. Plugs are wet with fuel.

Simple 2 stroke, if you are in time, points set and clean, coils firing, compression in the cylinder it will run as long as you get air and gas in the cylinder. If it is not running you are missing one of the aforementioned items.

Process of elimination. find which one you are missing and fix it.

Well, therein lies the problem. I got this thing running last year without too much issue - after it had been sitting for years - and now it won't even fire. It appears to have spark, and the plugs are wet with fuel - but it won't fire.

I've pulled apart the ignition system and reinstalled (plus cleaned all connections) and re-timed about 3-4 times now. I'm suspicious of the compression, but it doesn't seem THAT bad such that it wouldn't even fire at all...

--
aborgman

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

I agree with FR - check the head gasket. Compression is down from previous. Shows spark but doesn't run. Ran good and then didn't, with no drop-off. Points to the head gasket...
- Scott

It seems weird that if it were a head gasket it didn't die while running, but it's definitely on my list to check.

--
aborgman

 

[JB]

Re: Time to give up?

Don't think it is a head gasket (but could be wrong) because it has too much compression for a blown gasket.

Some confusion about whether you do or don't have spark, but it bangs when the wires are switched, so I think you have spark.

Have you inspected the intake manifold gasket and the reeds?

Maybe it is time to just give up and send it to me.

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

Don't think it is a head gasket (but could be wrong) because it has too much compression for a blown gasket.

I suppose it could be a small leak, but it seems like in that case it would probably still start - just run really poorly.

Some confusion about whether you do or don't have spark, but it bangs when the wires are switched, so I think you have spark.

It bangs/backfires when the wires are switched, it jumps the spark plug gap in open air, and it will jump a 1/4"-1/2" gap in open air. Whether there is much spark there when it is under compression is harder to say.

Have you inspected the intake manifold gasket and the reeds?

Not since I got it running last summer... I was figuring based on the way it died (running around the lake all day and then just refusing to start) that the likely culprit was electrical - in fact the behavior was very similar to when it stranded me because a plug wire pulled out of a coil.

Of course, now that everything electrical has basically been replaced/gone over... that seems significantly less likely.

Maybe it is time to just give up and send it to me.

I've never really given up on a motor before... but this thing is tempting me. I've probably got $100+ in parts, plus a good 30-40 hours of time over the last year... and I've managed about 5 hours of total water time with thing... which has included it stranding me twice...

--
aborgman

 

[JB]

Re: Time to give up?

Replacing parts is the most used, most expensive and least effective troubleshooting method known to man. It also often adds new problems, seriously complicating things.

Discard all assumptions and go to basic binary search. Engine FAQs, "Outboard won't start".

 

[kynolan2183]

Re: Time to give up?

You have said the magical words 30 to 40 hours of labor and 5 hours of fishing. It is not about working on the motor it is about using the motor. There are plenty of us out there that save up to buy our used 20 year old boats and because we had to save to buy them we have to work on them. Parts are cheaper than a new motor.

I place this into the same catagory has my honda big red I once had.
When the parts were adding up on the rebuild to 500 bucks from a junk yard and a new suzuki ozark was 3k ...I said, see you later big red.

It is an easy calculation. Get out the scale on one side weigh your money, your time, your sore hands, your frustration, and on the other side your P.O.ed wife. When she out weighs the others it is time to buy another motor.
but that also depends on the wife. Mine gets mad when I spend alot of money and time into something that has no value others get mad when you spend any money at all.

kyle

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Time to give up?

Yea... I just noticed the JW-10 mention, a 1952/54 3hp Johnson.... no kill circuit of course.

If you have compression, spark, and fuel, it's got to run UNLESS it's a case of too much fuel. Any chance the needle valves vibrated out of adjustment, something ofthat nature?

(Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
(J. Reeves)

Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently, then open 1 turn out. Top slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Setting the high and low needle valves properly:

NOTE: For engines that DO NOT have a shift selection, obviously there is no NEUTRAL position. Simply lower the rpms to the lowest setting to obtain the low speed needle valve adjustment.

(High Speed) Start engine (it will run pretty rough), shift into forward gear, take up to full throttle. In segments of 1/8 turn, waiting for the engine to respond between turns, start turning in the bottom high speed needle valve. You'll reach a point whereas the engine will either start to die out or spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the needle valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest setting.

(Low Speed) Slow the engine down to where it just stays running. Shift into neutral. Again in segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the top needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running. Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back. Again, at that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustments, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

Replacing parts is the most used, most expensive and least effective troubleshooting method known to man. It also often adds new problems, seriously complicating things.

Points were replaced because they were definitely bad - and I was getting no spark. Condensers were replaced because they come with the points. Plug wires were changed because it had a set of carbon core auto wires.

Other than that nothing has been touched since it was last running.

Discard all assumptions and go to basic binary search. Engine FAQs, "Outboard won't start".

2. Electric and manual start: Flywheel rotates but engine does not attempt to start. .
Remove a spark plug, reconnect it and hold it against engine block. Keep it there while turning engine over.

Does it make a hot, blue spark when attempting to start?

Yes.

Squirt some fuel mix (NOT ether) into the carb(s). Does it attempt to start?

No.

If no, check that carb is not flooding from failed float needle.

Doesn't appear to be an issue.

Still wont attempt to start. Check compression.

65psi top cylinder, 70psi bottom.

It isn't a sheared flywheel key either... I'm suspicious that it is either the compression, or that what appears to be a good spark isn't very good when under compression... but I'm honestly at a complete loss as to how it doesn't seem to fire at all, not even a little pop or sneeze.

--
aborgman

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

Yea... I just noticed the JW-10 mention, a 1952/54 3hp Johnson.... no kill circuit of course.

If you have compression, spark, and fuel, it's got to run UNLESS it's a case of too much fuel. Any chance the needle valves vibrated out of adjustment, something ofthat nature?

I suppose that is possible... though it seems like if I could get it to fire a little with the plug wires reversed it should fire with them in the correct position also.... I will definitely try resetting the high/low needle valves tomorrow though.

--
aborgman

 

[aborgman]

Re: Time to give up?

You have said the magical words 30 to 40 hours of labor and 5 hours of fishing. It is not about working on the motor it is about using the motor. There are plenty of us out there that save up to buy our used 20 year old boats and because we had to save to buy them we have to work on them. Parts are cheaper than a new motor.

I place this into the same catagory has my honda big red I once had.
When the parts were adding up on the rebuild to 500 bucks from a junk yard and a new suzuki ozark was 3k ...I said, see you later big red.

It is an easy calculation. Get out the scale on one side weigh your money, your time, your sore hands, your frustration, and on the other side your P.O.ed wife. When she out weighs the others it is time to buy another motor.
but that also depends on the wife. Mine gets mad when I spend alot of money and time into something that has no value others get mad when you spend any money at all.

kyle

Mine gets mad when I spend any money at all... and a new (or even newer used) outboard is out of the question. Heck, you can't get a running 3hp motor around here for less than about $400. In fact if this one takes much more money, THIS one will soon be out of the question - and I'll be back to shore fishing like I was before I traded an old junk drum kit for a boat, and my dad gave me a motor.

--
aborgman