To Paint, Or Not To Paint

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Intresting i never would have thought heat would come into play with a foam pad based on my use. I guess keeping the pad clean during use was so quick and easy it overshadowed my opinion.

It is a simple as taking a garden hose and spraying it clean...takes 3-secs rather that cleaning with a tool. But that could explain why i never experienced heat issues, the pad was mosit during the entire cut and polish. Any time the compound or pad started binding is the word i would clean it up under power with the hose as stated damm quick.

As always you bring clarity id guess wool is the norm....But true to my nature i will always try to find a short cut..and uncoventional methods.....

Thats 80% of the adventure..

 

[rfdfirecaptain]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Don't know where ondarvr buys this twisted and non-twisted wool. Everyone I asked from home stores to auto stores had never heard of it. So, I stopped looking for that too.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Don't know where ondarvr buys this twisted and non-twisted wool. Everyone I asked from home stores to auto stores had never heard of it. So, I stopped looking for that too.

Your work looks great your are tenacious to say the least. As to Ondarvr his knowledge and resources are vast. Remeber hes the professional most of us are tinker's in the end you do the best you can do and listen closely.

That reminds me of a old Norwegian Joke....You know what your can tell a Norwegian dont you......Not much............

 

[ondarvr]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Look at the links, they give the part #s for 3M.

The reason they don't know is because they most likely have never done any of this type of work.

I wouldn't expect a box store to have a clue on buffing pads, but a "good" auto paint store should have both types.

A cutting pad will buff to a gloss, and a polishing pad will cut, they just don't do as good of a job at it.

 

[sschefer]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Don't know where ondarvr buys this twisted and non-twisted wool. Everyone I asked from home stores to auto stores had never heard of it. So, I stopped looking for that too.

My local paint store carries them both.. 3M. I have both but havent got a clue with the part nrs are. Check 3M's website then search the Internet. Might even find them on eBay or Amazon.

It'd be my guess that the foam are the more popular because of the new water based paint systems.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

My local paint store carries them both.. 3M. I have both but havent got a clue with the part nrs are. Check 3M's website then search the Internet. Might even find them on eBay or Amazon.

It'd be my guess that the foam are the more popular because of the new water based paint systems.

Not really if you ever used a foam cutting pad youd find its much easier to use and control than a wool pad. I cannot say however that i have used a quality directional wool pad so to make a direct comparison is not fair. Nor am i a professional buffer or painter. There stds or results need to be consistent over and over again with out error. And as ondarvr has pointed out wool is still the bench mark.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

I use these things for gel..

http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=3M5703&Category_Code=

You will need an Adaptor for the pad ( basically a 5/8 extention ) or put a 5/8 nut on your buffer arbor before putting on the pad .

And this stuff ( West marine his very expensive.. Im only using as a reference.. )..

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...chanintel_google&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=21214

Nice to see it coming along .

YD.

 

[sschefer]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Not really if you ever used a foam cutting pad youd find its much easier to use and control than a wool pad. I cannot say however that i have used a quality directional wool pad so to make a direct comparison is not fair. Nor am i a professional buffer or painter. There stds or results need to be consistent over and over again with out error. And as ondarvr has pointed out wool is still the bench mark.

I'm a little confused by the response maybe I should have clarified that I buy mine at an automotive paint store where water based automotive paints are now the norm for compliance. The 3M process for final finishing these paints calls for the use of the foam pads so that's why I suspect they are more common now than the wool pads. The difference between the two wool pads is that one is for buffing and one is for polishing. Mine are clearly marked as such on the inside.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

If you want to get your paint job to a $10k finish..then you can use the Interface foam pad with some foam pad polishing glaze

If you want your gelcoat to look like a million bucks.. you would have to use wool pads ( or finish with a finishing pad ) OH..they sell the double buff in yellow also

Basically whatever pad you use ( white or yellow ) is dependant on what surface your working with. Now in this Threads case It needs the white buffing pad first ( Again.. WHITE Is buffing/rubbing .. and YELLOW is for fine polish ) may not even need the yellow pad .

I would use the foam pad for PAINT finishes..or CLEARS.. not gel

You need to generate Heat when rubbing out Gel. Your basically Melting the surface of the PLASTIC ( thats what gel is..plastic as in pepsi bottle ) and Rubbing/melting to a finish. If your not creating that heat..then you will not get a finish that will last nor doing any justice to your hull.

If it looks ok at first..then you put some waxy crap on there..and Then it looks Great..then your not buffing your gel right When your done buffing..you should be able to step back and say to yourself Job DONE !

YD.

 

[rfdfirecaptain]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

UPDATE:

In the photos below I am 2/3s done.

First pass was the 3M rubbing compound. That cut 90% of the stuff away. YD you were right? there was a ?crap coating? on there. Each time I put the 3M on I used a little water as suggested by TG. For the first few seconds the wetted compound would bead up just like ?fish-eye?? until it cut through the ?crap?. Keeping the compound wet seemed to help in several ways. It cut better and more evenly, the buffer didn?t work me as hard as when the pad was damp. Also, it helped smear the compound out more evenly, making it dry more uniformly. That allowed me to wipe off the dry compound easily by hand before making one more ?light? pass-over to even things up a little.

Second pass was Shurhold's Buff Magic. That helped level out some minor blemishes and swirl marks from the rubbing compound?. Brought out a deeper gloss too.

Back to work 24 hours tomorrow. Weather permitting I will have the third pass completed on Friday. I will be using Shurhold?s Pro Polish for the third and final coat.

Still some imperfections in the gel, but a heck of lot better than it was before I got advice from you guys and got started. The buffer from Harbor Freight and the 3M compound really turned things around. I?m satisfied I can live with it especially if it doesn?t get any worse. Any suggestions on how to keep it from oxidizing and going back to that mottled appearance?

I wiped the boat down with a microfiber cloth before taking the photos. I?ll wash before applying the final coat. I know it will look better when washed since there is still some dried ?fines? on the surface.

 

[rfdfirecaptain]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

YD...

Yes sir, for both the first and second coats I used a "white pad"... although it was synthetic. Probably not the right kind since it wasn't natural. LOL Anyway, I think it was you who suggested the white pad earlier in the thread. For the third and final coat I plan to use a yellow foam pad. Just to clarify.. You aren't suggesting the "yellow" synthetic wool pad for this are you?

As for all the comments about wool from you TG, ondarvr... I beleive you guys but in Raleigh, North Carolina I have yet to find anyone who sells a natural wool pad that fits the threads on the arbor of my Harbor Freight buffer. Also, not a soul could tell me anything about twisted and non-twisted wool. As you can see it's turned out pretty good so far. Not as good as you guys could have done I'm sure, but since you aren't my neighbors I'm stuck doing it myself.

Yeah and West Marine was my 5th and last stop this morning. They do not keep the 3M Imperial on the shelves. The manager told me I could get it at Pep Boys. That was stop #3... 10 miles back up the road. That's why I didn't come home with it today.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Dont put anything on it

As far as the waterline goes..you could try your superduty compound and press the crap outa that machine ( using motion of cource ).

Looks like you were starting to break through your scum line in areas.. try just a small spot.

Gel is Very forgiving .. Ive done boats where If I could stand on the buffer I would lol.. I mean put some Muscle ON it ! dont be scared .. just dont stay on one spot on high speed ..

If its Some kinda petrol intrustion in your gel ( being your gel is in the water..) then buff it up as good as possible and stay with it.

You Could raise your waterline up for the Bottom paint if you wish ( again you would have/must do that for a painted thing ).

Im just glad you didnt spend the Bucks on a paint job Not alot of people know this when they take there crappy " looking " boat into a shop.. oh what can I doo ??? When its just a rub out

YD.

PS. again.. put some Real pressure on that buffer for the waterline.

PSS. I would burn out that HF. special in about 10 mins on a buff job .. thats why Makita ( I use Snap on ) Etc are 200 bucks .

 

[rfdfirecaptain]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

YD... got it!

Well gang, you've gotten me this far. I'll post some photos on Friday afternoon. Maybe I'll even have the new striping on it too.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Two things happen when you push hard on the buffer, well actually three, the third one is you kill the buffer.

Pushing hard generates heat, heat will cause the gel coat to distort, when it distorts the surface becomes uneven with sort of an orange peel look. It can also lose some of the gloss due to heat.


The other thing that happens is you get an uneven cut on the surface, this is due to the uneven pressure on the surface from the relatively poorly supported buffing pad. A sanding block or DA pad holds the sand paper fairly flat against the surface (at least they will when used correctly, but that's another subject.), a buffing pad has little support, so if you try to use a buffing pad as a grinder you compromise the surface profile.

During demos we always have customers that have a method, or products they like to use and say they get great results, so we do a side by side comparison. They can use whatever products they want and whatever methods they choose, so far none have even been able to come close to the results the Farecla rep gets when the products are used as recommended by the manufacturers.

As far as which pad you use on this project, it will attain a fairly good gloss with any of them and unless you do a side by side comparison it will look fine.

As for the method, hold the buffer flat, not tilted up on its edge. Apply a little more pressure at first, but don?t push and keep it moving in a steady pattern and speed.
As you begin to build a gloss lighten up on the pressure.

Water helps to cut faster with some compounds, but not all, its just like wet sanding, it cuts faster. As you go to a finer compound (if you need to), it will need to be used dry at the end to achieve the best gloss because you don?t want it to cut, just polish.

 

[rfdfirecaptain]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

ondarvr,

Got it! Actually, a lot of the technique you described I was doing it?. near the end of the day of course. I didn?t start out that way, but I learned as the day wore on. Not all my ideas I read some threads and as Tail_Gunner says, if there?s a short-cut I?ll try to find it.

I?m curious to know more about the ?dry polishing?. Here?s what I did. I used this same routine for both the 3m Rubbing compound (pass #1) and the Shurhold?s Buff Magic (pass #2).

I buffed the paste on ?wetted? with water from a spray bottle. I worked 5 two foot wide sections at a time. By the time I got section 5 done with the wet buff, section 1 was dry to a haze. I used a micro-fiber cloth to remove the majority of the dried product from all 5 sections. Then I cleaned the gunk out of my wool pad and I used water from the spray bottle to buff all 5 sections again with the cleaned wool pad, but this time I used less pressure on the buffer. I purposely tried to buff it lightly. Then, once again, the 5 sections dried to a haze, but this time the haze was much lighter and there was very little aggregate in it. Again, I used a clean micro-fiber cloth to wipe the haze off all 5 sections and I buffed them again with a clean micro-fiber cloth which showed no signs of any product being left on the boat?s surface. The most recently posted photos are the results of this process.

Question? am I doing it right? Suggestions? Criticism?

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Never heard of anyone buffing with just water and a clean pad .

As for compounding..heat is needed to rub out for gel ( not paint ).

After cutting ( rubbing out ) you have to polish. Thats when you lighten up on the pad and keep it semi flat .. until your final pass which would be Higher speed and flat with hardly any pressure.

To get the best possible luster out of gel takes a bit of practice .. but it will turn out sweet..

All this keep it flat and lite pressure wont cut it.

There is a specific pressure and movement .. If you start your buffing with the pad flat your only pushing the product to the edges of the pad ..and basically slingin it all over the place instead of on the hull

YD.

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

This is one of my last Paint job

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Oops..wrong thread

YD.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

Never heard of anyone buffing with just water and a clean pad .

As for compounding..heat is needed to rub out for gel ( not paint ).

After cutting ( rubbing out ) you have to polish. Thats when you lighten up on the pad and keep it semi flat .. until your final pass which would be Higher speed and flat with hardly any pressure.

To get the best possible luster out of gel takes a bit of practice .. but it will turn out sweet..

All this keep it flat and lite pressure wont cut it.

There is a specific pressure and movement .. If you start your buffing with the pad flat your only pushing the product to the edges of the pad ..and basically slingin it all over the place instead of on the hull

YD.

Never heard of anyone buffing with just water and a clean pad .


It was apparent his hull was saturated with wax or some kind of product. Using just water and a foam compounding pad would cut it off quite quickely..What ever it had on there it was standing up to xylene and steel wool...

You might try one of those Mcquire pads...Dont be so narrow minded...... Just haven some fun Dr...That sail boat is gourgeous

 

[Yacht Dr.]

Re: To Paint, Or Not To Paint

I actually like MGs stuff..though our supplier doesnt carry it

YD.

PS. thanks TG.. here is her pullin out