torque shift props

Darian F.

Seaman
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
58
Hey guys I just saw the prop demo online for <br />Land and Sea's torque shift prop.<br />Are they up to par and what about the duration before they break, would they live a long time under a 300 horse sterndrive?<br /><br />Any big miricle performance like shown on the web site? Thanks for the info, I'm very courious.<br />Darian
 

cjflanagan

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
168
Re: torque shift props

Isn't that killer! Quite the hole shot! There has been a few discussions about these props here, you should try a search. I think Rodbolt or Bondo actually have one of these, hopefully they will chime in here eventually. I remember reading positive feedback about them. They sure are expensive though (check ebay). If you don't mind I'd like to piggy back on your thread (excuse me) and ask also if the prop should be considered truly variable pitch, as in continuous through a range, or is it simply two speed?
 

vinney

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
437
Re: torque shift props

Have put many on over the years. Had to buy back everyone. Biggest complant is vibration when there in the middle of shifting. Always sold them to someone for less than I paid for them. The land and sea boys would say they need to break in. After many hours and changing cams in the prop and doing all the adjustment they said to do they still vibrated way too much for most customers. Great idea on paper.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: torque shift props

I dont want any boat who has one anywhere near my boat or family. I've seen what happens. Twice.<br /><br />Think about it. The blade is held on by a little post about the size of your thumb.
 

Walt T

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 16, 2002
Messages
1,369
Re: torque shift props

Those things are worthless. I refuse to sell them and strongly recommend against anyone buying them. It's hard to believe they are still selling those things.
 

Doug Durako

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
519
Re: torque shift props

You will get many opinions here.<br /><br />I bought one from Land and Sea and it was not quite right out of the box. They rebuilt it for free and it works wonderfully now. They will not do this if you purchase a used one.<br /><br />Search on this post for my long story last summer.<br /><br />I must say, it works wonderfully now. We can pull three tubes with 8 people in the boat and no load on the motor.<br /><br />You must tune these props. I would not use one on anything over 300 horse. There is a warning on how manny RPM they will take---it is right on the info sent with the prop buy I guess no one reads the instructions.<br /><br />I love mine, but I don't use it on long river cruises.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,083
Re: torque shift props

Yep,<br />I've got one,+ LOVE It.........<br /><br />If you're expecting a "Plug & Play" system.....<br />Don't waste your Money.......<br />But, If You're willing,+ able to Tinker,+ Tune it,<br />You'll Fall in Love.........<br />If you put the Time,+ Effort into it,<br />It'll do Everything they Say it Will..........<br />And More....... :D <br /><br />The Viberation everybody complains about is from a lack of care in the set-up.......<br />All three Blades Must be Tuned, Exactly the Same....<br />
ask also if the prop should be considered truly variable pitch, as in continuous through a range,
Yes, Continuous...... <br />Mine's set-up for 11"s to 20"s........<br /><br />I can see where you fellows in the "Bis" don't like them......<br />They take alittle Attention......<br />And, Average Joe Boater Expects to Just turn the Key,+ FLY..........
 

mkast

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 6, 2002
Messages
1,934
Re: torque shift props

I'm using a Quicksilver variable prop. Low side is 15 pitch, high side is 21 pitch. It's on a 23 footer. Boat really just POPS on plane, more than once someone has remarked, "HOLY SHIP".
 

garycinn

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Messages
479
Re: torque shift props

Originally posted by Bondo:<br />The Viberation everybody complains about is from a lack of care in the set-up.......<br />All three Blades Must be Tuned, Exactly the Same....
Bondo, I bought one in the fall from someone that didn't like it. I paid $100 for it and it is hardly used. I have spent some time taking it apart, tuning it, and understanding how it works. It is a ZZ cam 14-32 pitch for 4.3L's with the stock springs. I have a 2800 lb 20 foot Bryant with 4.3L EFI. <br /><br />When you say to tune the blades exactly the same, do you mean backing out the hex screws exactly the same amount of turns?<br /><br />Also L&S mentioned that you may want to put some never-sieze on the cam surfaces.<br /><br />I can't wait to try mine out in a month.
 

cjflanagan

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
168
Re: torque shift props

Hey here is a full read I found:<br /><br />Reprint of article published in TRAILER BOATS MAGAZINE.<br />"In our tests, the low-end pitch settings resulted in sterling acceleration when set to 13 1/2 inches, awesome acceleration at 11 1/2 inches and brutal acceleration at 91/2 inches."<br />REVOLUTIONARY NEW PROP<br /><br />Land & Sea Torque-­Shift meets your needs automatically, with surprising results<br /><br /> BY JIM BARRON<br /><br />The subject of props always seems to come up in boating discussions, but few props have developed as much interest as the Land & Sea Torque-Shift. Adjustable-pitch props and variable-pitch props are not new. Ocean liners have used variable-pitch props for years and, in some cases, the pitch can be reversed to allow backing without the need of a separate transmission. This type of prop requires a considerable amount of mechanical or hydraulic linkage and isn't too practical for outboards and stern drives.<br /><br />Some composite props are designed to allow blades to flex, with the claim that they automatically adjust their pitch to match the load. The Land & Sea prop is not a true variable-pitch. Rather, it is a shifting prop that goes from one predeter­mined pitch to another. The design is clever. The shift point is controlled by the operator, and our initial experiences with this prop indicate that it works well, is efficient and is capable of solving a lot of boating problems.<br /><br />As we stated earlier, this is a prop that is capable of shifting from one pitch to another. The stainless-steel blades actually pivot in the hub, and different blade sets are available to match the top-speed capabilities of your boat. The maximum pitch currently available is 32 inches, and that blade set is adjustable so that the pitch my be held to 24 inches maximum. The minimum pitch available with this blade set is 12 inches, and with the use of shims, the minimum pitch can be held to approximately 16 inches.<br /><br />The blade set for our test boat, a 20-foot Sanger Barefoot Skier with a 200-hp Evinrude, had an upper pitch range of 26 to 19 inches and a lower range of 9 1/2 inches to approximately 13 1/2 inches. The upper and lower pitch ranges are user-adjustable to match the requirements of the boat.<br /><br />On our test boat, we could accelerate to a plane with a 9 1/2-inch-pitch prop, let the prop shift, then cruise with a 26-inch ­- pitch prop. We found that limiting the top end pitch to approximately 24 inches gave us the best speed. Limiting the bottom-end pitch to 11 1/2 inches provided the smoothest shifting and excellent low-end acceleration.<br /><br />Using the extremes of the pitch range provided a real wallop in low-end acceleration, but the engine wasn't happy with the 26-inch-pitch on top end and bogged down just after shifting. Using the 9 1/2 ­inch, low-end pitch with the 24-inch top-end pitch preserved the initial low-end wallop with the best top end, but the shift point was just past planing speed and engine rpm was climbing rapidly into the red zone. The 11 1/2-inch, low-end setting had us planing comfortably and resulted in shifts that kept engine rpm high enough to continue to pull strongly.<br /><br />In our tests, the low-end pitch settings resulted in sterling acceleration when set to 13 1/2 inches, awesome acceleration at 11 1/2 inches and brutal acceleration at 91/2 inches. The various low-end pitches translate into a top speed of approx­imately 38, 33 and 26 mph, respectively, at 6000 rpm. These speeds were taken with the engine trimmed down to prevent the prop from shifting, a control feature we will discuss later.<br /><br />The shifting mechanism of the Torque-Shift prop is ingenious and controlled by several factors, which include a set of springs that return the prop to the low­pitch position at idle, a cam profile on the shank of the blades, centrifugal forces of the spinning blades and trim angle that control the center of pressure on the face of the blade. All of these forces work together to control blade shifting.<br /><br />When no force is acting on the blades, the springs hold the prop in the low-pitch position. When accelerating, two things happen. With the bow trimmed down, first the center of pressure (the force of the water acting on the blade) is concen­trated toward the trailing edge of the blade. This is behind the pivot point of the blade, and the resulting forces tend to hold the blade in the low-pitch position. Second, as propeller rpm increases, centrifugal forces try to push the blades away from the hub and the diameter of the prop actually increases from 14 to 14 5/8 inches as the prop shifts from low to high pitch. The cam profile on the blade shank forces the blade to twist to its high-pitch setting as the blades move away from the hub. As long as the center of pressure is on the trailing edge of the blades and is greater than the centrifugal forces acting on the hub, the prop will stay in the low-pitch position.<br /><br />When we trim the drive unit out, the center of pressure on the blade moves toward the leading edge. The water forces are now concentrated ahead of the pivot point of the blades. When these forces, combined with the centrifugal forces of the blades trying to move away from the hub, overcome spring tension, the prop shifts to its high-pitch position. The operator controls the shift point of the prop by trimming in or out and the throttle setting.<br /><br />The shift points under a given set of conditions are determined by blade weight, and shift cam profile. When properly set up, the operator can force an earlier upshift by trimming out further or sooner, or can force a downshift by trimming down and lightly backing off the throttle momentarily. Once shifted, the prop will stay where it is. This allows the low-pitch setting to be used at reasonably high speeds (limited by engine rpm) for heavy-duty ski towing or the high-pitch setting can be used at moderate cruising speeds for maximum economy while sight-seeing. The shifts are solid, not mushy, and are similar to a car's automatic transmission. Downshifts also are very apparent as the boat slows and the engine speeds up, again not unlike downshifting an automotive transmission.<br /><br />Adjustable components include the blade-pitch range, blade cam profiles, spring tension, three-or four-blade hubs, cleaver and round-eared blades. In short, there is a wide range of parts to play with and Land & Sea has computerized effects of various components and engines to determine which parts work best in a given application. Once in the user's hands, there are still a lot of adjustments available and this is half the fun of using the prop. The high-pitch limit is set with a setscrew on each blade, easily adjusted with the prop on the boat. The low-pitch settings are controlled by placing shims between the hub and the diffuser ring. This requires disassembly of the prop. A single turn of the setscrew equals approximately a two-inch change in pitch on the top end, and each shim under the diffuser ring equals about two inches in pitch at the lower end.<br /><br />We ran some comparisons with the Sanger. Our baseline was the boat with the engine mounted on a transom jack that was set at its lowest position of 22 1/2 inches and set back 6 1/2 inches. The boat was fitted with a stock 23-inch-pitch OMC aluminum prop. Top speed was an indicated 62 mph at 5800 rpm. Accelera­tion from 0 to 30 was 6.7 seconds.<br /><br />The Torque-Shift prop, adjusted to a maximum pitch of approximately 24 inches, produced a top speed of 64 mph at 5600 rpm and accelerated from 0 to 30 in 4.8 seconds, with the lower limit set at approximately 11-1/2-inch-pitch. We recorded a top speed of 66 mph with the engine three inches higher on the transom. With the engine jacked that high, acceleration was approximately one second slower. There was more speed available with even higher engine settings, because the prop was still biting strongly and not ventilating. However, even though top speeds were increasing, our crew felt they were doing something wrong because 0 to 30 times were also increasing.<br /><br />There are many boat owners out there who constantly complain about not enough power to pull skiers. In short, if this prop will fit your unit, it will solve 99 percent of the problems. The prop is designed to fit V-6 and V-8 outboards and most Cobra, Yamaha and MerCruiser stern drives. Not announced, but report­edly under consideration, is a smaller prop for the bigger four-cylinder out­boards and smaller Cobra stern drives. At approximately $500 a copy, it's not inexpensive, but we can't think of any product at twice the price that will make such a difference in performance. The unit is well made, simple and fun to adjust, re-buildable and works as advertised.<br /><br />As centrifugal force pulls the blades from the hub, a cam action on the blade shank causes the prop blade to shift to a higher pitch.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,083
Re: torque shift props

Boiling Point 212,<br />Great Post.......<br />Although I disagree with a few of JIM BARRON's conclusions.....<br />Mainly, My prop is a Progressive shift......<br />Unlike mkast's Quicksilver variable prop, Which Is ,in fact, a Two Speed Prop.......<br />Yes, I can Force shifts, but left alone, it'll shift Progressively, from low to high......<br /><br />garycinn,<br />I Wish I had Better News,<br />But, I Think you'd do better to sell your prop on ebay... You'll get Atleast $300. for it....<br />Then go and find one with the 11"/26" pitch blades......<br />I Think you're Not going to be able to keep the upper pitch down low enough to stay in the power-band of your 4.3l......<br />The 14"/32" is more for boats that run Much Faster than our boats........<br />As if you couldn't tell by my signature, I'm more than inclined to Grease Things.... <br />So, Yes, I use Plenty of Never-Seize when putting my props together.....<br />With a Solid 3 seasons,+ over 300hrs,(with the exception of a bent blade, from contact with real estate) The Only Problem I've encountered is the plastic bushings the blades run in are showing wear,+ will be replaced this spring.........<br />
When you say to tune the blades exactly the same, do you mean backing out the hex screws exactly the same amount of turns?
Exactly what I mean......<br />I even bought L&S's Prop Pitch Gauge.... Pretty Handy, Even to check Other props....... ;)
 

cjflanagan

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
168
Re: torque shift props

garycinn- I'll take that prop off your hands for what you have in it this minute :) . I've got the horsepower to spin it!!!!
 

Darian F.

Seaman
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
58
Re: torque shift props

Thanks for the info guys i'd like to "see" one in person first? <br />maybe i'm a skeptic but 800$ is a lot for a prop.
 

garycinn

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 7, 2003
Messages
479
Re: torque shift props

Thanks for the help, Bondo. No, BP, I'll keep it and try it out for now -- thanks anyway ;) <br /><br />Maybe I have the smaller prop, I'm confused because the only zz cam listed is on the larger prop. My prop doesn't have any markings on it, but the cam does have zz stamped on it. I'll just have to try it out in a few weeks. I can then sell it and take the money and buy that new HO waterski I have been looking at ;) <br /><br />I would like to buy one of their prop gauges, but they don't sell them anymore :( <br /><br />Gary
 

guylain

Cadet
Joined
May 31, 2003
Messages
14
Re: torque shift props

boiling point, i have a 11-26 land and sea in my garage and each time i use it i bright my cam. Somebody tell me ist no for run wiht 460 ford block. what do you thing of that and if you thing the 14-32 for me?
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,083
Re: torque shift props

each time i use it i bright my cam
Pardon ??????<br /><br />The 11-26 Should run just Fine,<br />Unless you Need a Higher Final Pitch.........
 

simon666

Cadet
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
14
Re: torque shift props

Hi<br />Ive just got hold of a Quicksilver Power 2 variable pitch prop from ebay.<br />Just wondering if anyone could help me out with finding the original manual that was supplied with it.<br />If someone could scan it for me i would be very greatfull.<br />Thanks.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,083
Re: torque shift props

Simon,<br />Welcome to the iboats forums.........<br /><br />You'll get Many More responces if you Start a new Topic about your Quicksilver Power 2, <br />As it's a Totally Different Breed.............
 

cjflanagan

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Oct 1, 2003
Messages
168
Re: torque shift props

You break your cam? You mean on the prop? Sorry don't understand...
 

Doug Durako

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
519
Re: torque shift props

Guylain was here last summer with his problems---he has some difficulty with English---must be a second language for him.<br /><br />He was breaking cams---I think he has too much torque for the shifting prop. The instructions with the prop warn against this. Cams will break and blades will fly if the prop reaches over 3800 rpm----which would mean about 5700 rpm on the tach with a 1.5 gear ratio, I think.
 
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