Torture

[rolmops]

Re: Torture

I believe that this whole torture legitimizing thing makes absolutely no difference as far as what is being done to suspected prisoners yesterday or tomorrow.It is mainly a way to protect the "interrogators" from lawsuits farther down the road.
With or without this little law,the people in charge make sure that nobody knows what happens on the locked floors of the prison camps.
My big problem is what this legitimizing does to our self respect as a nation.

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

I believe that this whole torture legitimizing thing makes absolutely no difference as far as what is being done to suspected prisoners yesterday or tomorrow.It is mainly a way to protect the "interrogators" from lawsuits farther down the road.
With or without this little law,the people in charge make sure that nobody knows what happens on the locked floors of the prison camps.
My big problem is what this legitimizing does to our self respect as a nation.

Same as after WWII.

 

[ob]

Re: Torture

IMy big problem is what this legitimizing does to our self respect as a nation.

You willing to place you or your familys' head on the chopping block to test your theory?Suppose one of these guys had the low down on a planned attack that happened to be where your loved ones were at at the time.Then let's suppose that you found out later that this could have been discovered and prevented by something as simple as a dose of sodium pentethol or a swift kick in the butt.What country would you seek out to peddle your self respect?What are your accepted methods of obtaining information from known terrorists?Financial offers perhaps?Maybe they could adjust fuel and goods prices stateside and funnel the inflated procedes into a terrorist compensation fund.Point is ,if you're going to critique anything,then without some alternative effective solution,your complaints amount to annoying finger pointing whines.Particularly when you reap the freedom and security benefits that we enjoy as a nation.Do you place more accountability on the alleged behavior of military interrogators or the terrorist that are being interrogated?Do you feel that the specifics of every interrogation method that may be resorted to should be public information? Can you provide one country of the world that does?

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Torture

Rumsfeld looks like he could fill the "Grand Inquisitor" slot.....IMHO....JK

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Torture

ob, I asked the same of woodrat, you won't get an answer. Maybe a long reply, but no answer.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Torture



"As long as morals mean so much to you woodrat ,I'm wondering why you haven't sited your buddy txwinner for the racial epithet"

I don't know txwinner, not as a buddy or any other way, and while I'm not impressed with his use of racial epithets, that is not what the thread is about.

"Frankly ,I personally don't buy a word of your concern for the treatment of prisoners.You've showed time and time again that it simply serves as a convenient topic to launch your disdain for Bush and the GOP."

I don't care for a minute what you "buy" or not. I've been told time and again over the last two years on this forum that my opinion is neither respected or desired, so I am way past caring what you think of it.

I've said what I have to say on this sorry subject, and I will leave this thread with this thought again: Anyone who says that torture is OK because the ends justify the means, no longer has anything useful to say to me about morals. Because you just got through telling me that you are, in fact, a moral relativist, something that the right wing Christians keep saying will cause the downfall of western civilization. There is apparently no absolute right or wrong, no definitve line that you won't cross or support being crossed if you think it will serve you and yours to cross it.

Who would Jesus torture?

 

[woodrat]

Re: Torture

"ob, I asked the same of woodrat, you won't get an answer. Maybe a long reply, but no answer. "

I've answered yours and others demands to provide alternative plans for war. They were roundly dismissed without any consideration. I answered your request for the liberal plans for the war in iraq. You were too disinterested to use google to follow up the sources I gave you.

I know from experience though, that even if I laid the links in your lap, you would sneer and scoff no matter what they contained, because they would differ from "stay the course" which is the only idea you Bush apologists seem to think is appropriate.

I don't feel that I need to provide a different way to get information from prisoners if we can't torture them. Five years ago, this wasn't even on the table, now suddenly you and your pals act like we will all die tomorrow if W's men can't have free range to torture anyone they want. Here's my answer: they can do what law enforcement already does when interrogating prisoners. If they won't talk, well, lock them up and move on.

As far as I'm concerned, torture is wrong and shouldn't be on the table at all. That IS my position on it, and would be exactly the same if Bill or Hillary or Nancy Pelosi or John Kerry were suggesting it. My viewpoint on this IS based on moral considerations and has nothing to do with politics. I know that might be hard for you who are all about partisan politics to understand, but it's true.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Torture

Thank you for an answer !!!

"Here's my answer: they can do what law enforcement already does when interrogating prisoners. If they won't talk, well, lock them up and move on."

That is called Gitmo. But the libs don't want that open either, so where do the go? Secret CIA prisons are off limit, because they are illegal to the same folks that want Gitmo closed.Send them to their home country? But if we do that, we are accused of sending them there because those countries use torture.

 

[ob]

Re: Torture

1)I considered you and txwinner a buddy because over the two years you speak of you seem to champion his cause.Whatever it is.

2)Never said or implied you should care what I wouldn't buy from you.

3)Noone is saying that torture is OK.That's what txwinner titled the thread in reference to interrogation methods.Hell I got three licks with a wooden paddle from teachers ,coaches ,and principles when I grew up just for cutting up in class.You bleeding heart liberals would consider that torture for a terrorist that cut up one of your fellow citizens.

4)Jesus I'm quite sure wouldn't torture anyone.But then ,He is the Son of God and the "only' man that lived and died on Earth that is free of original sin.That was a rhetorical question ....right?

5)So far as there being no line I won't cross to serve me and mine.......well, those are your words.

6)And finally the relevance of the epithets used by txwinner in his opening comments should really be self explanitory as to how it pertains to his concern for the treatment of foreign or domestic adversaries and is telling of his lack of credibilty as an initiator of the topic.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Torture

I'd like my country to have the reputation of being absolute gentlemen during times of peace. And be absolute barbarians during a time of war.

 

[monk-monk]

Re: Torture

Human invertabrates...thats what we're dealing with here!! As in the statement : Demanding that I provide an alternative means of interrogation is just a side show ; Sounds like an escape cliche' that Clinton would use!! That really means : I'm just weak and timid and I don't want to rock the boat and please don't challenge me to intelligently answer why any person invovled in terrorist activity on innocent human beings shouldn't have their day ruined from sun-up to sun-down!! YOU ARE THE WEAK!! Heres my way : CAPTURE, INTERROGATE, and if nessacary COERCION without pain to get info. Heres the stand : The strong, Capture and detain...The Weak : Rescue and coddle...these people would sell your country out in a skinny minute if they thought it would save their ass...probably one who always had the dodgeball thrown at'em in grade school...and then they wonder why? They will not stand up to any confrontation because their scared...run,hide and cower...it'll all go away...spineless thats what it is. How can you join in a dialoge and then demand that you not be held accountable to explain your statement? YOU ARE THE WEAK!!

 

[monk-monk]

Re: Torture

Please refference Websters New World Dictionary; TREASON...Betrayal of ones Country to an enemy! It used to be a crime in wartime but, now-a-days that would indict 90% of Hollywood, 96% of the Democrates, the other 4% of'em linger in the balance of the system staying just above the surface to survive...ARE YOU WITH US...OR THEM ( terrorists)...tell me SPINELESS ONES...theres only two sides to choose from...a third side makes an " obtuse " Defined in my Websters as "Slow to Understand" ...These people would kill your loved ones in front of you and hand you the head...why don't you understand this? Stand up and be strong...this will require physical confrontation don't be scared we're here for you!!! And you better be thankful of that!! FOR YOU ARE LOST SHEEP AND WE WILL SURELY FIND YOU!!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Torture

monk-monk
define a terrorist.
then tell us how to identify them. do we go by the red T tattoed on the foreheads at birth ?
thats the problem with trying to deal with US CIA trained loosly knit "organization" no one part has all the information nessasary to prevent much of anything.
most the US and some other intel organization knew they 9/11 thing was coming.
no they did not have a name and a date, they did know it was gonna be big and it was going to involve aircraft.
that much has been found written in stone but quietly hushed as it would have embarresed a number of people and organizations.
but with 20 poeople or so involved in the training and planning and financing of the 9/11 events its rather difficult to prevent.
it still took them about 4 years to pull it off.
had we actually detained and tortured one we would not have gotten enough info to stop an event. its difficult to torture someone while fishing for information because the torturer has to lead the tortured one and that leads to bogus information.
but so far I have seen no reliable way to predict who will be a terrorist and who wont.
and if the military gets the green light how long before domestic law enforcement follows the lead ?

 

[rolmops]

Re: Torture

IMy big problem is what this legitimizing does to our self respect as a nation.

You willing to place you or your familys' head on the chopping block to test your theory?Suppose one of these guys had the low down on a planned attack that happened to be where your loved ones were at at the time.Then let's suppose that you found out later that this could have been discovered and prevented by something as simple as a dose of sodium pentethol or a swift kick in the butt.What country would you seek out to peddle your self respect?What are your accepted methods of obtaining information from known terrorists?Financial offers perhaps?Maybe they could adjust fuel and goods prices stateside and funnel the inflated procedes into a terrorist compensation fund.Point is ,if you're going to critique anything,then without some alternative effective solution,your complaints amount to annoying finger pointing whines.Particularly when you reap the freedom and security benefits that we enjoy as a nation.Do you place more accountability on the alleged behavior of military interrogators or the terrorist that are being interrogated?Do you feel that the specifics of every interrogation method that may be resorted to should be public information? Can you provide one country of the world that does?

I can clearly see your point.
My family has been very close to that block for a long time.One person who was very close to me actually died in a terror attack.So for me it really is not an armchair opinion.It is much more a cynical observation.
That being said,the question rises ,how can we prevent the perceived need for torture,which by the way,is a reaction instead of an initiative
Terror is a form of offensive by an enemy, succesful enough to be attacking instead of being on the run.
There is only one way to stop this.That is by no longer reacting to your enemy,but attacking him at all possible fronts and making him run for his life.That way he is reacting to you and figuring out where to run next will be his main concern,not attacking us.
So if anyone wants to stop the need for extreme measures,this is your answer.Attack,attack,attack!
You can look in the west bank and the Gaza strip,where this tactic is used, and you will see that all the casualties are on the palestinian side and their terror organisations are so pressured that they actually started fighting each other.

 

[ob]

Re: Torture

I agree rolmops.And attacking is exactly what the US is trying to do.Trouble is ,we have to be careful with our methods of attack unless we can get support from the other major world powers.Namely China in the case of NK.What do you think the outcome would be if the roles were switched between the US and Iraq,Iran,and NK?Do you think for one second that they would delay using every arsenal in their bag to prevent collateral damage and use nuclear weapons only as a last resort?My answer is no.The US's primary target are terrorists only and our enemy is targeting every American on the planet.Solutions are complicated at best.What this country needs to regain is polarity from its citizens.All of this partisanship is feeding the monster.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Torture

So if anyone wants to stop the need for extreme measures,this is your answer.Attack,attack,attack!

War has been around long enough to know what works and what doesn't.
I hope before all this is over some retired General will take Rumsfeld out back and soundly perform an old fashion whuppin'.

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

I think we need a new amendment to the Constitution:

Once war has been declared, the politicians have to butt out and leave it to the professionals.. word it as you like 8)

 

[--GQ--]

Re: Torture

WOW! How did I miss this thread. A bunch of senior citizens screaming. How funny. 8)

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

WOW! How did I miss this thread. A bunch of senior citizens screaming. How funny. 8)

Watch who you're calling a senior boy. 8)

 

[ob]

Re: Torture

WOW! How did I miss this thread. A bunch of senior citizens screaming. How funny. 8)

Watch who you're calling a senior boy. 8)

That's right sonny.And next time before you enter,we're gonna have to see some i.d.8)