Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Well Nos. I guess they don't work in the UK, whatever. As for here in Phoenix, they have made some difference in conjunction with an education campaign. Phoenix used to be one of the worst cities in the country for red light running, now they're about average. The cameras have been an effective deterrent.

 

[jtexas]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Originally posted by Larry_F:<br /> Lets see if you do not run the red light no ticket. Where's the problem. Unless the time the yellow stays on is shortened. I believe they did that in DC>

Problem: <br />Due process.<br />Innocent until proven guilty.<br />Republicans are allowed to believe in Due Process, aren't we?<br /><br /><br />

txswinner:jtexas, they have written the ordinance as a violation of the owner having auto that runs the light.

<br /><br />That mean it's not a moving violation? So, now we (automobile owners) are responsible for collecting traffic fines?

 

[SwampNut]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

They use them for speed and lights around here. The easy ways around them are:<br /><br />Register the vehicle using a PO box (can't serve you notice to appear).<br /><br />Register in a company name.<br /><br />Register in spouse's name (they won't send a ticket if the gender of the name and person in photo don't match).<br /><br />Hold something over your face. Here it has become fun to hold a hand with a middle finger over your face as you blow through the light.<br /><br />Ride a motorcycle--a full helmet makes you unidentifiable.

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Originally posted by Drowned Rat:<br /> Well Nos. I guess they don't work in the UK, whatever. As for here in Phoenix, they have made some difference in conjunction with an education campaign. Phoenix used to be one of the worst cities in the country for red light running, now they're about average. The cameras have been an effective deterrent.

DR they ain't working the UK because they been put in the wrong places: like halfway down a steep hill <br />We don't have too much faith in the speeding laws in this country and two recent cases show why:<br /><br />1. A Traffic cop just beat a speeding ticket; he was clocked doing 159mph in a pursuit vehicle one night in an urban area. His defence was that he was "just checking the vehicles capabilities" <br /><br />2. A farmer had a ticket issued from an authority that was over 200 hundred miles away......because his tractor had been clocked doing 49mph in a 30mph zone <br />In court he was quoted as saying "I knew my tractor was good but not good enough to be that fast and in two places at once". thankfully the police admitted the error.<br /><br />Don't mind the idea of speed cameras and red light cameras as long as they are sited where they are needed and the money goes somehwere sensible: our local Air Ambulance service (a charity) had to ground it's helicopter recently for several months because of a severe drop in donations (post tsunami appeal, everyone gave money to the tsunami and the donations to the air ambulance dried up). Now if the local council/police donated the revenue to the air ambulance it would be a different story and then you justify that the cameras were being used to assist with road safety.<br />Heck I might even speed thru one a month just to make a donation

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Just typical! Just bleeding typical!!<br /><br />I open my mouth, or in this case, type a response with factual information and the bleeding government goes and changes the information <br /><br />The 159 mph cop story can be found here: at least the latest version can! <br /><br />Seems that because of the outrage that was caused by the acquital it was referred to a higher court who have ruled against the cop.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the cop himself, I just feel that rules are rules are rules are rules: if he'd been on a "shout" I'd have been defending him from the highest rooftops.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

They are using them in Cleveland now. Lots of people complaining. I just can't understand why so many are upset over it. If your driving according to the law, then why do you have a problem with it?<br /><br />It is strange to me that so many people die each year in traffic related deaths, but nobody really wants to see traffic violations enforced.<br /><br />Money and safety is the issue behind this. In Cleveland, it is $100 fine for running the light and $200 for speeding. There has been more speeding violations (even with a 8 mph leeway) due to people speeding up to make the yellow.<br /><br />I would think after getting bit by the cameras, one would learn quickly that abiding by the law is cheaper.

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Just one other quick point about this and then I'll shut up I promise <br /><br />In the UK the main problem is that the fixed speed cameras are seen as a revenue raiser (as stated by Nos et al) but the government and the police go to huge lengths to justify the cameras on the grounds of road safety..........<br /><br />.......just one slight problem with that argument: there is one police force in England (Durham) that steadfastly refused to use fixed cameras anywhere in it's county and guess what? <br /><br />If you said: Durham is the only English police force to have seen a fall in it's road traffic accidents then you'd be correct! <br /><br />As our American Cousins say "Go Figure" !

 

[jtexas]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

If a photo of the driver is part of the program, and can be used in defense of the charge against the registered owner of the vehicle, I'll totally withdraw my objection, in fact I'll get behind it 100%. As a parent of 2 soon-to-be-driving teens, I gotta support all compliance efforts.<br /><br />++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<br />Stan, that is a great story...help me out here...the M54, what kind of roadway is that (# lanes, speed limit, freeway, tollway???).<br /><br />And the jurisdiction of "West Mercia" - some kind of local geographical area - about what size? Or part of a city or something?<br /><br />comments of a West Mercia spokesman:<br />

"In West Mercia, clear guidelines which ensure that all advanced drivers know what they can and cannot do when driving vehicles above the posted speed limit - in accordance with national training guidelines - have been circulated." <br /><br />The guidelines allow for officers to exceed limits, but never to drive at more than 120mph. <br />

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<br /><br />Separate but vaguely related: heard on the radio this morning - Denton County (just north of Dallas) has had deputies doing radar surveys on the highways.<br /><br />Something like 16% of motorists are in compliance with the speed limit. Not sure what the standard of precision is (1 or 5 MPH or whatever, to allow for measurement error, maybe 0 MPH). The results of their study are being used to apply for a federal grant to fund additional highway speed control officers.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

It is 100% illegal because it doenst follow "due process". The offender must be correctly IDed before convicted of the crime. You can be called a suspect with the picture, but not the offender.<br /><br />If you drive 100% error free, you could still get a ticket in the mail, because the system can make errors. Reference the 49 mph tractor story stan deezy talked about. Think about it, if it wasnt a tractor, how could he have proven he wasnt going 49 mph?<br /><br />Ken

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Stan, that is a great story...help me out here...the M54, what kind of roadway is that (# lanes, speed limit, freeway, tollway???).<br /><br />And the jurisdiction of "West Mercia" - some kind of local geographical area - about what size? Or part of a city or something?<br /><br />comments of a West Mercia spokesman:<br /><br />M54 is motorway or three lanes plus a shoulder and a central reservation; in places it drops to two lanes plus a shoulder. Speed limit is 70mph most of the way. The cop was also clocked in a town centre at 91mph where the speed limit is 30 mph <br /><br />Mercia is the district of the Midlands of England: more info here <br /><br />Hope this helps.......

 

[SwampNut]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

If your driving according to the law, then why do you have a problem with it?

Because the laws are wrong and arbitrary. I for one would like to see 100% enforcement of all traffic laws, since they would be repealed in a week.

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

The cameras can make mistakes, but it's usually pretty easy to identify the mistake when it happens. But cops make mistakes too. The only difference is when a cop makes an error, he can testify against you either if he doesn't know he goofed or if he's just trying to save face. I'll take my chances with a camera. If it's wrong, I'll prove it. If the cop is wrong, it's your word against his often times.

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Originally posted by Drowned Rat:<br /> Well Nos. I guess they don't work in the UK, whatever. As for here in Phoenix, they have made some difference in conjunction with an education campaign. Phoenix used to be one of the worst cities in the country for red light running, now they're about average. The cameras have been an effective deterrent.

We have had both an education campaign running in an area with no cameras (county durham) and areas with just cameras and no education campaign. Funnily enough, the area with cameras actually increased in death/serious injury accidents whereas the area with an education campaign and no cameras had a significant drop in accident figures.

 

[SwampNut]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

it's your word against his often times.

And some cops will lie outright in court. Been there, didn't get the t-shirt.

 

[treedancer]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Funnily enough, the area with cameras actually increased in death/serious injury accidents whereas the area with an education campaign and no cameras had a significant drop in accident figures.

Most likely because everyone is running around with Halloween mask on trying to avoid red light tickets.

 

[Terry Olson]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

They just started using the cameras in Minneapolis too. The numbers don't lie - nearly half the accidents at the intersections where they were put into use.<br /><br />Even so, I don't agree with it at all. <br /><br />Plenty have asserted the idea that you can't be charged if they can't prove you're the driver. I agree with that, but these cities wouldn't be spending what surely amounts to millions of dollars for such a system if they believed the courts wouldn't uphold this type of enforcement. I don't know of specific case law, but there must be some that supports this somewhere.

 

[deputydawg]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Here I get at least 4 complaiants a year from local citizens who have recieved tickets in the mail from New York. They are all for either failing to pay at a toll booth or failing to stop at a weigh station, one or the other. They get a summons to appear in court or pay a fine, and a photo of a license plate. None of these people have ever been to New York.<br /><br />What we found is happening, when they break whatever law it is on a toll road the camera snaps a shot of the license plate. All we have seen are on commercial trucks, semi trailers. Their plates are black and white like Nebraska plates. The idiot sending the tickets will look at the plate, look at their book of examples for all states and pick Nebraska as the origin of the plate even though it is not an exact match. They don't even think it could be an apportioned or permanent commercial plate. <br /><br />The people who get these tickets come to us very angry at the charge. We call out to wherever the court is for that to help them. The first 15 or more we were treated very rude and called liars. Finally we got them to send us an affidavit saying the photo does not match the plate. Wouldn't it be easier to train their workers to recognize commercial and state plates?

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Originally posted by treedancer:<br />

Funnily enough, the area with cameras actually increased in death/serious injury accidents whereas the area with an education campaign and no cameras had a significant drop in accident figures.

Most likely because everyone is running around with Halloween mask on trying to avoid red light tickets.

May sound like I have no sense of humour here but no, it's because people are looking at the camera to see if it flashes rather than the road. Obviously this is only in cases where they have trouble stopping in time-but these cases are the ones where the accident is more likely to happen anyway.<br /><br />There's also a new phrase you guys won't have heard of here. <br /><br />Regression to the Mean.<br /><br />The implications of this are that when a particular place shows a sudden increase in the number of accidents in a year then a camera gets placed there.<br /> The next year that 'spike in the graph' disappears because the previous year was for example a freak accident or one accident occurred where none had occurred before.(think of a connotation of this and it will probably be relevant)<br /><br />This shows a 'remarkable improvement' as far as the camera operators are concerned-but all it shows is that the average is still true, but you now have something ELSE for the driver to watch/worry about rather than look at the road.<br /><br />Consequently the number of accidents RISE.

 

[flips]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Here in oz we have had them for years, They have booked power poles for speeding.Readings have been wrong so lots got let off ,but many got fined before this.You have to prove whos driving at the time or rego owner gets fined.This leads to playing with points means if i was driving and have no points left you blame your wife and she looses the points , as long as you pay the money they dont care.<br /><br />Mate its just for the money

 

[SwampNut]

Re: Traffic Light Violations By Camera???

Plenty have asserted the idea that you can't be charged if they can't prove you're the driver. I agree with that, but these cities wouldn't be spending what surely amounts to millions of dollars for such a system if they believed the courts wouldn't uphold this type of enforcement.

They're counting on the fact that most people are sheep who will just bleat a little and then pay up as they are told. Few people fight this, even though it's easy.<br /><br />It varies by state, but here's how AZ law treats it... The initial mailed citation has no legal power. You can just ignore it. What they do next is send a process server to deliver a notice to appear. This means...simple...don't open the door! Truly it is as simple as that, and the photo people have been lamenting that it's costing them too much money.<br /><br />If you do receive the personal service, you have to appear in court. If it's you in the pic, you're done for. If it's anyone else, you simply decline to testify. That's it, ticket dismissed.