Trim Tabs??

Boatist · Dec 11, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

John Just for the record My boat is 20 feet 6 inches with a 92 inch beam. It is a closed bow Crestliner Runabout with a dry weight of 2800 pounds. We boat in the inland lakes and rivers, San Francisco Bay, San Pablo bay to the delta. Most of our Pacific Ocean trips are from Bodega Bay. I really love my Bennett Hydraulic trim tabs. Just so much you can do with them to help your boat ride better. There many that will not take the time to learn to adjust them. I started with a Joy stick control and some times had to think which way to move the lever. I later changed to the double rocker switch and it is so easy to adjust just like you want it. No harder than turning the stearing wheel. Still there are those that do not realize when they turn the stearing wheel that they are turning the back of the boat and they may have problems.

rwidman · Dec 12, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

There many that will not take the time to learn to adjust them. I started with a Joy stick control and some times had to think which way to move the lever. I later changed to the double rocker switch and it is so easy to adjust just like you want it.

I had trouble learning to adjust them until I realized that the dealer had installed them backwards!

An e-mail to Bennett brought instructions for correcting the problem and they've been fine ever since.

Jdeagro · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Boatist; There are many thousands of satisfied boat owners with Bennett trim tabs, including myself. Customer service is outstanding, and the product is well made, and priced competetively for the system. I frankly do not feel we compete as the applications and use are different, and the pricing is geared toward a diffenent consumer.

Tabman · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

John, Narrow boat = Easier to balance port to starboard? Can you explain this?

Tom McGow Bennett Marine

Jdeagro · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Tom; Why is this so hard to understand? Less boat, less mass to move, and the lower the corrective forces need to be. Have you test our product in the practical world?

umblecumbuz · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

A coupla hundredweight slung on the port side of my narrow boat would almost sink the gunnels! Same sack on my Hatteras wouldn't show on the meter. But I agree with nautiJohn - easier to list is easier to correct - but with trimtabs, only when you're moving. Really, trim tabs are masking the problem, not correcting it. Have the motor cut on you in a breaking swell and see what happens!

Tabman · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

John, I was confused by your statement. I have taken several courses in naval architecture (years ago in the 70s when I still did not know what I wanted to be when I grew up). And as I was taught the length to beam ratio had a great impact on the stability of any hull form. A long skinny hulls stability is greatly impacted be even small changes in load distribution side to side (think canoe). If weight shifts side to side in a narrow boat it will lean more quickly and to a greater extent than a boat with a greater beam given the same overall and waterline length (think barge). You are absolutely correct about it taking less force to incline a narrow boat, but it applies to weight placement inside the boat as well. We will have to disagree on this, but in my mind the smaller the boat the more it is affected by weight displacement, and people (or coolers) moving about the boat will have a dynamic impact on the trim, particularly on a narrow boat. Therefore being able to adjust the Tabs on the fly is actually more important on these types of boats then larger boats. The comment was not meant to criticize Johns product rather it truly confused me. I was referring to the theory and practice of how different hull shapes behave. Taken by itself that statement is contrary to what I know about the impact hull form has on a boats static and running stability. Baz, your point about the weight on a Hatteras vs. a small boat illustrates my point. Yes you are correct any type of Tab will only work when the boat is moving forward. But case in point, my old Aquasport is fairly narrow vs. newer boats of about the same LOA such as a Wellcraft Coastal. The Wellcraft is a bit more immune to side to side weight distribution then my boat. Thus instead of having to tell my three girls to move around I would rather adjust the Tabs. And I would also like a boat slightly better length to beam ratio so it was a bit more stable at rest and underway. Simply put being able to control the boats attitude as weight shifts around is a tremendous advantage. But of course I work for Bennett and have a vested interest in remotely adjusted Tabs. I feel that a good understanding of the forces at play on small boats should be understood and explained to the best of our abilities. I hope this explains why Johns statement piqued my curiosity. Tom Mcgow Bennett Marine

umblecumbuz · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Hmmmmm ..... Seems to me there are two issues here, similar to what nautiJohn talked about earlier - a 'permanent' weight inbalance, as opposed to a temporary inbalance. No 'permanent' inbalance should be counteracted by trim tab settings. Common sense says - fix the problem, don't mask it. Basic good seamanship. I agree that it's a seeming advantage to adjust temporary inbalances ('adjust' is used deliberately) on small craft by trimming the tabs port/starboard, but it's sloppy seamanship to allow the reason for the inbalance to continue uncorrected - however difficult the remedy might be ('Don't all rush to one side kids - remember what I've taught you!'). One day, the captain might be caught out if he hasn't instilled into his tribe/passengers the proper way to behave on a small craft. I also know that what I've just said is sometimes nearly impossible to do! But training always pays off in the end. To my mind, port/starboard inbalances should be adjusted with trim tabs as a last resort. With automatic tabs such as SmartTabs on a small, narrow-beam craft, bow/stern attitude is taken care of without any input from the helmsman - giving him more time to yell at the kids! You pays your money ...

Jdeagro · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Tom, I do not disagree that the smaller narrower boat will be effect quicker and easier with weight shifts, but given the mass is less it is also easier to correct. I am sure you would not say that correcting the list on a 30 ft fly bridge sedan with a 12 ft beam takes less force than a 19 ft open bow with a 8 ft beam. None the less, I have always said that helm controlled tabs can effect more control over severe listing. However, most often this is over kill on smaller boats and our customers tell us they are quite happy with the stability improvements they get. And, it comes automatically. You need to try some, I would be happy to provide a set for your testing.

BillP · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Hey Tabman...ex Westlawn student here...never graduated but studied with them in 1967-68. You guys omitted one thing on the wide vs narrow boats. Wide boats have the tabs mounted wider and have more arm to correct with. Displacement being the same, it makes a wider boat easier (less deflection) to trim list while using the same size tab as a narrower boat. I laugh everytime I see the task of operating trim tabs spoken of as an issue...like it is a big distraction (all 2 seconds of it), difficult (for -00 IQs or people without fingers?) or whatever (in dreams). About the only people (I'd guess 99%)who say that have never used cockpit adjustable tabs more than once or are selling non cockpit adjustables. If controling remote tabs is too difficult you don't belong behind the wheel...it's just that simple. I still like the idea of setting tabs up with a programmable gyro and have a pocket size remote to change settings at will.

Tabman · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

BillP, I have great respect for Westlawn, great program, lots of great graduates, and non-graduates! Good point re lever arm on a wider boat, I suppose that it does have to overcome the increased buoyancy as the opposing side of the hull is immersed. But this is the type of subject that fascinates me! Our Auto Tab Control, although it does not have a remote, is really quite cool! John, I dont believe that any trimming system should be used to correct a severe list and would agree with Stillfishing that a severe list should cured by fixing the root cause. What I refer to is correcting a variable list as conditions change. I also agree with him on the proper trimming of a boat as well. But I like to be able to trim the boat for all conditions and on the fly. On a 20 foot boat it is ok if people move about the boat unless they do something unsafe, and having Tabs that I can adjust takes the lean out of the boat and makes it more pleasant. And like Bill says I dont spend but a few seconds here and there in an entire day of boating, and my boat is far from a destination boat. In fact sometimes I will induce a slight list when spray is blowing over the bow. By slightly raising the bow that the spray is coming over I can block most of it. Thank you very much for your offer of a set of Smart Tabs! But like we do with all competitive products, we acquired a set some time ago. Just something we do! We have also have run with fins and other brands of helm controlled Tabs as well as other trimming devices. Just as you compare the advantages of Smart Tabs over drive mounted fins, I feel compelled to as factually as I can advocate the advantages of remotely adjustable Trim Tabs. I think this is a really interesting thread, and one thing is for sure, I-boat forum members will know more about our respective products and their applications then anyone, with the exception of you and me! Tom McGow Bennett Marine

walleyehed · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in just to add another point...I have an 18ft Deep-V aluminum which has about a hundred more horses on the rear than it should. At 65MPH (Not full throttle), this non-stepped hull has real bad habits to say the least. NOW, please keep in mind I work on many BIG Carvers, etc.,and I also wrench on smaller vessels (Prefered). I've run many different tab systems and for my boat, I put a set of Mobsters on (By Nauticus), and I have no issues what-so-ever with these tabs. I can tell you I know what the result would be with one wrong move with cockpit adjustables...... Not fueling any fires here, just adding another use factor that should be considered-speed is one of them.

umblecumbuz · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Yeah, it is an interesting thread. Two quotes I picked up on: Tabman:

In fact sometimes I will induce a slight list when spray is blowing over the bow. By slightly raising the bow that the spray is coming over I can block most of it.

This is a real-life advantage when there's a low swell being wind-whipped, and something that cannot be done without port/starboard adjustment. But to me, this one is more important, by Kenny:

I can tell you I know what the result would be with one wrong move with cockpit adjustables...

That also applies to kids whipping from one side to the other without forethought (how many ferries - big ships - have capsized for the same reason?) which is why I would never port/starboard trim except in emergency. I would rather train my kids (five so far) to experience the results of sudden weight shifts by deliberately training them, than leave them in ignorance by masking the causes (Like, before boarding Been to the John, Lifejackets on, Tell the skipper what could go wrong ... etc) Real-life training's never wasted. The kids tell the newbie passengers, have fun doing it, and everyone's safer as a result. PS. Saw a lost tab on the sea-bed once! Couldn't find the boat though.

John_S · Dec 13, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

FWIW, from someone who has read allot of posts on a number of boards, both Bennett and Nauticus are excellent companies and support their products, before and after the sale. While with many products, this in itself becomes one of the variables in the buying decission. Not so, with these two companies. It was very refreshing to see this in my research.

BillP · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Originally posted by walleyehed: I'm going to throw my 2 cents in just to add another point...I have an 18ft Deep-V aluminum which has about a hundred more horses on the rear than it should. At 65MPH (Not full throttle), this non-stepped hull has real bad habits to say the least. NOW, please keep in mind I work on many BIG Carvers, etc.,and I also wrench on smaller vessels (Prefered). I've run many different tab systems and for my boat, I put a set of Mobsters on (By Nauticus), and I have no issues what-so-ever with these tabs. I can tell you I know what the result would be with one wrong move with cockpit adjustables...... Not fueling any fires here, just adding another use factor that should be considered-speed is one of them.

Kenney, I've personally never experience danger at high speeds while tweaking tabs...but only gone 64 mph in a 20' flats boat with Bennetts. The hull was probably good for a lot more speed before getting anywhere near dangerous. I think there are two sides to tweaking at high speeds. If severe porpoising starts it can be deadly to back off the throttle, especially on deep vees...but tweaking tabs and motor can eliminate it. Fixed tabs may leave the option of motor trim only. If manual tabs are incorrectly adjusted they be the cause of the porpoise too. I just don't see high speed danger with any tab system as a big decision maker on which system to buy. Drag racers use fixed tabs but they are running at the edge of sanity and dial the tabs in carefully with trials. Respectfully, bp

Tabman · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

It is worth noting that many boat builders of small, fast, boats have been installing remotely adjustable Trim Tabs for years without incident. Donzi, Campion, Baja, Sunastion, Maverick /Hewes/Pathfinder, Mako, Gambler, Storm, Ranger, Triton, Hydrasport, Stingray and many more boat builders offer remotely adjustable Trim Tabs as standard equipment or a factory option on boats as small as 16 feet and most of them run very fast. Heck, my old Aquasport can go 47 on a good day, and it is far easier to get in trouble with the steering or power trim, then the Tabs. Plus the Tabs give plenty of warning that you are in the process of doing something wrong. The notion that Trim Tabs are somehow unsafe on smaller, faster boats simply does not hold water. Far too may boat builders offer them as a factory option, or standard for this to be the case. There are far too many lawyers out there for this to be true

If a boat is so fast that Trim Tabs are a liability, then like ALL controls aboard the boat, the owner and any operator must fully understand their function. This includes steering, throttle, shift, jack plate, power trim, and Trim Tabs. At this point, such as very high speed bass boats, no one can just jump in the boat and firewall the throttle without learning all aspects of the boat. If they do not it will be a very sporty day on the water, with or without any type of TrimTabs! Tom McGow Bennett Marine

umblecumbuz · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

So we're back to training. Couldn't agree more. Here, there are accidents galore because of untrained idiots, so the Maritime Authority is making an operators license mandatory, starting with big-engined boats. Better late than never. It doesn't include boat trimming though. As with anything mechanical that's connected with the sea ... belt and braces, every time. Good thread - I learnt a lot. Thanks all.

Jdeagro · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Regarding permanent lists - I would agree that a severe permanent list should be permanently fixed (not with tabs) as this means there is an unsafe condition. However, if you have an "annoying" list caused by a kicker motor, or prop torque, the resolution may not be acceptable (changing the prop or removing the kicker), and using our (Smart Tabs) adjustment is not only easy but has no real down side. For that matter using helm controlled tabs is OK in my mind also. As for mis-use, accidental or otherwise, at plaining speeds or more, there is a real possibility of causing a severe list and steering problems. This is exactly why Bennett (as related to me by Tom) has a slow reaction time. This allows the pilot some time to make appropriate corrections before the condition becomes a problem. These trim controls can be nearly as affective as Steering and throttle control. Therefore it requires practice to be competent. I am not saying that their system is not safe or good or unfit in anyway, I have used and owned the Bennett system on more than one boat, and been very satisfied with both. We developed Smart Tabs with a very different user and application in mind. What should be understood is that Smart Tabs are not fixed, they are active. Similar to the suspension system on your car. Therefor corrections are continuous. The manipulation of the tabs in heavy seas is not an opton, but the motor trim and boat speed is. Tom; I know that you have tested our product as well as the other competetors such as Lenco, Trim Master, Insta Trim Etc. I am flattered that our relatively new little company is even on the radar screen of a company such as yours. By the way you make larger tabs for larger boats because larger boats require more. This goes back to what I said before, it is easier to control the attitude of smaller boats.

walleyehed · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

BillP, Porpoise hasn't really been an issue, but chine-walk is a whole nother story..

With no pad for any stability at speed, in this case, above about 50-52, I knew I needed some extra help, so I went to John. He suggested the Mobsters (due to the speeds) over the standard smart-tabs, and went up with actuator strength (Resistance)and he was right on the money. There is no feeling like pulling up along-side a Basser, and of course they hammer a little more to walk away (They dont like that alum deep-v hanging around)then drop the hammer and blow past the Bass boat with more rooster than he has....they don't like that either, even though I've learned just where to trim to get the best rooster-tail. It's satisfaction for me

It may not be the smartest thing in the world to over-power your boat, but with experience and understanding the margin for error is very thin, I accept what the end result could be, just as I accept the same possibilities as a pilot...I could die if a small error is made. As stated by many above, the use of the product, result expected and the experience level of the operator all come into play. I ran a Maxxam(sp?) awhile back that I quickly found had no fluid in the port tab system, after ripping the guts out of the rear berth to find the res. and hoses, I found the leak, repaired the metal thru-hull tube and started over (These were not Bennetts)These had a movement speed that was quicker than I could think, and I didn't like that. I've ran several with Bennett tab systems and they are much more user-friendly speed-wise, and knew if ever I fell to a larger boat, that would most likely be the system I would want.

BillP · Dec 14, 2004

Re: Trim Tabs??

Hey Kenny, I hear ya. Probably our different conditions mean we have different conclusions. I think some of it depends on sea conditions. With really bad porpoising (like 40' ocean racers do it) in sloppy conditions the bow can land at a different attack angle and start back and forth sideways bouncing...then trip or swap ends. Kind of like when you oversteer a car and it swerves more and more until spinning out...you can't back off if to late and recover...like spinning a C150 more times than the manual says.

Trim Tabs??

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