Trim tilt

[forceproblem]

I have pulled my trim tilt. Apart and am locating the ball bearings and o rings now is there anything else I should be needing I don't know what kind of pump it is. but it is on my force 125 but it's not the stock pump so it's hard to give advice but I don't see anything else I can do to it other then rings and balls thank you for any advice

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

pictures needed

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

hope they show up

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

that is an Eaton pump. sold on mercury mariner from 1987-1993 and on Force from 1992-1994. It is the most durable and simple pump Mercury has ever sold. Hoever, it is extremely sensitive to debris. You need to wash it off better before assembly.

When assembling, put the "slug together first with the three small socket bolts and then bolt it down onto the manifold with the one long through bolt. put the gears and springs into picture #3 and lower it down onto the other half. Use vaseline to hold parts in place. Always use new seals.

picture #3 looks like you may be missing the ball bearing that goes along with that one small oring. If you have lost it, then use the plastic one in picture #2. Replace #2 with a 1/8" precision metal ball bearing from the hardware store.

these things rarely fail unless something in the system is putting out rustflakes or debris. You need to look for the source.

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

Are you sure there is a bearing on that o ring I was very careful not to loose any pieces and the debris is from my old barn I work in but it was perfectly clean when I pulled it I plan to clean it well before install

In the whole system there are two 7/32 bearings under the two springs and 1/8 on top of a spring should I have more? Thank u

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

yup. there should be four

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

OK I did what said about switching the 1/8 bearing and replacing the othe but the question is should the 1/8 ball fall in the whole with the o ring I see where the other half meets up w the o ring and that looks right but want to be sure before assembly
Oh and what do u recommend for fluid it was ATF but I was told a thicker weight should be used.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

i use iso32 hydraulic oil with that pump. Same stuff Florida Power & Light puts into their bucket trucks. Maybe even the same stuff they use in the crab pot cranes on that TV show "deadliest catch". Probably the same stuff GM uses on their assembly lines. It's not cheap but it makes expensive machinery last longer.

The chrysler trim is a high pressure system and the more horsepower you have the higher the pressure. ATF will eventually impregnate the orings and cause them to fail if you have a four or five cylinder engine.

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

So the bearing is correct then in the hole the small o ring is?

 

[brian66r1]

Re: Trim tilt

Hi forceproblem.

I have a 1994 120HP in Australia and mine has the identical pump in it.

I've been looking for days trying to find someone with the same pump/motor suffering from the same symptoms I have. I just bought the boat knowing that there was an issue with the tilt/trim on the outboard and thought to myself it would be a walk in the park to fix.

I'm happy to hear from RRitt that it is one of the better most durable and simple units produced. I've been reading a lot of his replies in the last week or so and I'd be happy to go along with pretty much anything he says.

My motor would trim OK but it wouldn't tilt at all. If another person operated the tilt switch, I was able to lift the leg up to the top and wedge a lump of 4X2 under it to hold it up but the moment I lifted it and removed the wood it would fall down quite quickly. Down to the trim ram at least anyway.

I took the top off the pump and firstly I was amazed at the quality, colour and consistency of the fluid that came out of it. Looked like it had been watered down a bit, grey in colour and full of tiny air bubbles. I found something that looked like it could have been the remains of a blown O-ring sitting on top of the pump body as I lifted off the motor. When I separated the 2 halves of the pump, I found it looking identical to yours. I too however cannot recal there being the ball bearing that RRitt was talking about in Picture 3? I am pretty sure I had 3 O-rings sitting in the recesses of the manifold. (I'll pull it apart again tomorrow and confirm this). I was a bit puzzled by the 1/8th ball sitting in the little housing on top of the spring in Picture 2. This ball (and I didn't realize it was plastic) doesn't seem to have any purpose? When you look at the bottom side of the pump, there is nowhere for this ball to locate into. It is almost as though it needs to be turned around (placed upside down)? What is it there for?

Is it correct then, that if I replace the balls and the O-rings and then replace the ATF with good quality hydraulic fluid, then based on what many on this forum have been saying (it is only a very small percentage of tilt/trim faults that are associated with the tilt/trim rams), my system will work fine?

Thanks, Brian

 

[brian66r1]

Re: Trim tilt

Does you assembly look a little like this one?

http://www.seawaymarine.com/pages/O...MOTOR_KIT/06-002-823644-4790/FORCE82364429059

Brian

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

Ya I replaced the 1/8 bearing with metal one. I also replaced the o rings under the reed valves. I think thats what they are called then replaced the trim ram o rings they are easy to do and found all seals in a local hydraulic shop. as for the last post that is the same pump. I have had no problems since the iso 32 hydraulic fluid that rritt recommended works great. Good luck

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

i checked one in shop. there are two steel ball bearings in the body and one plastic ball bearing underneath for a total of three. I use a delrin for the plastic ball because it has the highest pressure ratings I can get. You could probably use a metal ball for the 1/8" but I prefer plastic. I don't know if it is true or not, but i feel that the plastic will flew just a little and still make a good seal in case the aluminum is distorted. That seal should be fluid tight. It might be worth checking with grainger. I think they only cost $3 or $4 per bag of 100.

 

[brian66r1]

Re: Trim tilt

Wow. Thanks for the replies.

So. Forceproblem. You dug out that hardened plastic from those reed valves. I think they are like a non-return or one-way valve and replaced them with o-rings? And that worked OK?

Im sure that plastic once used to be soft rubber and a bit more full in shape but it in no way resembles what once could have been an o-ring. Do you recall what size o-ring you used?

Looking at those valves, I would have thought that the seal was pressed or moulded into the metalic body of the valve. Looks like I've got another job to do. Only I'm stuck in a cycle of night shifts at the moment and that usually means sleeping almost every daylight hour. Otherwise I turn into a zombie.

Brian.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

i think what he is calling a reed valve is the check valve. Each half has a plunger with a small tip. Fluid pressure pushes the plungers up or down depending on direction and the pointed tip will open the check and allow fluid to escape from the rams. Each half of the pump has a check valve located opposite to the plunger. When you release the switch and the motor stops spinning then the check valves close and the engine is locked in place.

Inside the check valve are two seals. One is on the poppet and is best left alone. The other is on the round steel cover and is size 012 in a buna70 material. If one of the eaton style pumps ever fails it is almost always from debris. The debris usually comes from the use of ATF fluid causing the trim piston ring to crystalize and crack. The pump needs to be completely taken down and thoroughly washed out. Don't forget to lube the gear shafts before assembling. If you assemble dry then you might burn the gears. If the fluid was red and your engine is 120HP+ then you should rebuild trim & tilt rams and refill system with ISO32. Make sure to use new cover colts on trim. If you look at old ones they usually appear a little thinner near the bolt. That is because the bolts have been stretched. You should always replace cover bolts just because new ones are cheap and the damage cost of a snapped bolt is very expensive. The top wiper on tilt ram is proprietary and can not be replaced. Take care not to damage that seal. except for the top wiper and tilt head to body seal an Eaton system uses the all the same cylinder seals as a chrysler.

 

[brian66r1]

Re: Trim tilt

The latest.

I replaced the seals in the check valves and put the pump back in. The trim ram fully extends and lifts the motor off the transom but the tilt ram is not lifting the motor any further. When I let the switch go, the motor slowly falls back down, the trim ram won't hold the motor up. I ordered a new pump but I'm certain this is not going to make any difference. I'm told the pump is a genuine replacement part and hopefully not some Chinese replacement part as I have read in some of these forums that some of these non original parts are guaranteed to fail.

I'm trying to avoid taking the rams out beacause I believe the boat has spent most of it's life in salt water and after briefly trying to move the lower shaft that holds the bottom of the rams into the motor brackets, it appears to be frozen into the trim housing and the brackets. I'll try spraying vinegar all over it to see if it frees up (I believe this is what I should try) but I think I will have to take the motor off and separate the brackets to remove this. Any suggestions right now would be welcome.

Another reason why I don't want to remove the trim ram is because the previous owner had replaced the bottom 2 trim cover bolts (when they broke) with roofing screws?????

I'm guessing that when I get the trim ram off, I will have to drill out the holes, cut new threads and put larger bolts in. Is this likely to have any adverse effects?

I have a few days off next week so it looks like I'm going to be busy.

Brian.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim tilt

why not just rebuild and flush the rams while they are still on the boat? That is not an original trim cover bolt on bottom left corner so it should be do-able. Just go slow and steady and be extra careful not to stretch or break off any bolts. If you snap a bolt then you are forced into pulling the rams.

the eaton pump is almost bullet-proof. It is the most elegantly simple design of any pump I have ever serviced. If you flushed it and put it back together with new orings then it should work.

Go to harbor freight and buy their cheap 5000psi pressure gauge. Go to NAPA and buy some 3/16" inverted flare plugs. Plug up the pump port that goes to back of trim ram and hook gauge to tilt-up port. Run trim and see what gauge says. If it goes and holds anything from 1900-3000psi then the pump is working.

 

[forceproblem]

Re: Trim tilt

What rritt said is right check valves he knows what he is talking about when I had the problem of the motor always coming down I found that the trim ram seal was damaged as soon as I replaced it I spent the extra hour and did the tilt once you have done all those thing there isnot much left that I could do without taking it to a shop so if your already into replacing o rings might as well do the tilt trim rams good luck