Two Cycle Oil

Forktail

Ensign
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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Two Cycle Oil

by achris - This is in direct contrast to what I see when I pull engines down. The engines with the least buildup are running Merc Premium Plus.
The Merc Premium Plus is excellent oil. The ash components in it are practically not worth mentioning, especially if the outboards you're pulling down run at slightly higher temps. The fact you're not seeing any build-up is a sign the small amount of ash is being burned and blown out. Hopefully the reason you're having to pull the engines down in the first place isn't a result of the oil burning too clean. I just don't think you can wrong these days with any TC-W3 oil in an outboard.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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4,698
Re: Two Cycle Oil

There is no ash requirement in the NMMA TC-W3 oil testing procedures. The oil is tested for deposit buildup, ring sticking, scuffing, lubricity, etc. Even the early BIA certified outboard oils were considered low ash, not ashless.
 

Forktail

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Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Two Cycle Oil

seahorse, no one ever said there was an ash requirement for TC-W3 oils, so I can't tell if you're erroneously suggesting that low ash oils are better for our outboards, or if you just want to argue? :confused: <br /><br />Maybe you don't get it. Low-ash oils are better for higher temperature (ring land) air-cooled engines. Ashless oils are for lower temperature (ring-land) liquid-cooled outboards. Low ash oils are not what our liquid-cooled outboards run best on. And you'll find most reputable modern TC-W3 outboard oils to have "NIL" or ".00X" %ash weight.<br /><br />We know TC-W3 oil is tested by NMMA's sanctioned laboratories for deposit buildup, ring sticking, scuffing, lubricity, etc. The point is that for most TC-W3 oils to meet those test standards, they have to be ashless. There are very few exceptions.<br /><br />You would be wrong to insinuate that the NMMA tests or analyzes the oil itself (for ash detergents, etc.). On the contrary, the NMMA's laboratories test the outboard's general condition, with emphasis on the pistons, rings, and cylinders...only as a result of using that particular oil. The oil can contain anything, as long as it operates in their test outboards sufficiently (and meets other industry standards).<br /><br />For example, during the two Mercury 15 HP detergency tests, a TC-W3 oil must not have a compression loss of 20 psi or greater within 100 hours of testing. It's piston scuffing must be limited to 15% circumferential and 20% area. Ring wiping must be limited to 5%. The piston pin needles bearings must fall easily from the bore of the wrist pin. The average adjusted second ring sticking must be greater than or equal to 8 merits (a rating system). And the average piston second land deposits must be greater than or equal to 6 merits. There is no lubricant analysis. It is a pass/fail test based on engine analysis. And in some tests, like the 40 HP general performance test, the lubricity test, and the preignition test, the oil must perform in the engine as good or better than the NMMA's reference oil. But again, the oil itself is not evaluated.<br /><br />Your comment about earlier outboards oils being low ash makes no sense, as the specifications and testing standards for outboard oils have changed since then, requiring better performance in liquid-cooled outboards. Ashless oils have filled the niche. <br /><br /><br />seahorse, if you feel low ash oils are better to run in your liquid cooled outboard than ashless, then by all means have at it. Hopefully others here will have more common sense. But what do I know. ;) <br /><br />I see our oil expert, LubeDude, has left the stage on this one. :D
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
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Jan 24, 2002
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4,698
Re: Two Cycle Oil

Forktail,<br /><br />Boy are you defensive! I simply pointed out in a previous post that there were metallic additives in Merc and Yamaha oil after you said that TC-W3 oils were ashless, when some are low-ash. When you did your research, you found out about the ash producing additives according to the lab tests. These forums are about sharing information and helping others.<br /><br />I know the NMMA requirements as I used to be involved with them and with the previous BIA oil testing the early days of oil development and certification.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Two Cycle Oil

Well, I just got in, been gone for the weekend.<br /><br />You boys are having a great discussion without fighting, good job.<br /><br />And Forktail, you are doing a great job, so I will not interfier. Im basicaly on your side on this one. :D
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: Two Cycle Oil

What you been smokin' lubey???? You been fishin' without me haven't ya... :D
 

orca

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 12, 2002
Messages
422
Re: Two Cycle Oil

G,Day Guys, can I add another angle here, here in Australia we are paying approx $25.00 aus for Quicksilver TCW3 premium oil 4 Litre. My brother has a bobombardier seadoo and is using Bombardier formula XP-S oil which is $100.00 aus for 4L, What is so special about this oil, Bomb state that their seadoo,s must not be run on TCW3.
 

lark2004

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Messages
1,080
Re: Two Cycle Oil

As JB said, I too know of the damage a tcw3 oil can do to air cooled engines. A person here in au was telling everyone how great his 5th scale race car ran on merc. quicksilver at 50:1. These 22cc engines run at 18000 RPM, At the National Titles, His engine didn't anymore, on the main straight at max RPM, his engine siezed, the flywheel disintergrated due to the rotating force behind it (the crankshaft key didn't shear) and the pieces of it tore his car apart, the car had been worth $3000.00. <br /><br />Oils are made for particular situations/aplications. Don't try to be cheap and use what you think might work, it WILL cost you more in the long run.
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Two Cycle Oil

by seahorse - Forktail, Boy are you defensive!
I'd just hate to see someone here ruin their outboard by running low ash oil in it. If you want to, that is your prerogative. But please don't make senseless arguement about it.<br /><br />
by seahorse - I simply pointed out in a previous post that there were metallic additives in Merc and Yamaha oil after you said that TC-W3 oils were ashless, when some are low-ash.
I guess you don't want to understand. Just because there are some metallic components present in the oil doesn't necessarily make it a "low ash" oil. There needs to be significant amounts of metallic additives present to make them "low ash". You need to primarily look at Calcium and Magnesium levels. 1 ppm (part per million) or even 18 ppm are indeed ash levels, but not levels high enough to consider the oil "low ash". They would be considered "ashless".<br /><br />For example the BassBoat oil report I linked lists Lucas Semi-Synthetic as a TC-W3 oil having 238 ppm of Calcium...an ash component way higher than the rest. This level is high enough to consider it as a "low ash" oil rather than an "ashless" oil. In fact, Lucas does call it a "low ash" oil and lists their %ash weight as .25, rather than NIL or .00X like the others. <br /><br />The important part, which you fail to acknowledge, is that this oil is dual-rated as ISO GD, JASCO FC, and API TC for air cooled engines. It has higher levels of ash, and it is not a better outboard oil, or an outboard oil I would recommend, over other non-dual-rated TC-W3 oils.<br /><br />seahorse, you will be hard pressed to find a reputable TC-W3 oil that isn't "ashless". Most all are. If you find one that's "low ash" like the Lucas, chances are it is dual rated for air cooled engines. No thanks. Clealy the "ashless" oils more adequetly meet the TC-W3 requirement. And by the way, the Yamalube and Merc oil do not carry significant amounts of metallic compounds, and thus they are considered "ashless".<br /><br />
by seahorse - When you did your research, you found out about the ash producing additives according to the lab tests.
What are you talkling about? :confused: My "research" has to do with the fact I have some Petroleum Engineering experience. ;) <br /><br />
These forums are about sharing information and helping others.
Then take your own advice, stop arguing, and try to understand that ashless oil is what our TC-W3 outboards need. Insinuating that low ash oils are ok for our outboards could end up causing our readers costly engine rebuilds. It looks like most here realize that.
 

LubeDude

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
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Re: Two Cycle Oil

I probably should just stay out of this, but I have to say it anyway.<br /><br />I do not see where Seahorse is recomending that anyone use a (Non Ashless oil) in there outboards.<br /><br />I just isnt there anywhere, I feel you are reading something in there that just isnt there.<br /><br />Now, I have the utmost respect for your engineering knoledge about oils, and I truly believe that most of our arguments are generally arguing the same points from a different outlook.<br /><br />However, with that said, I think you need to look closer at what people are actually trying to say other than what you think they said.<br /><br />I have continually had to defend myself with you because you quoted me out of context, and because I am not that eloquent with words, I had a hard time doing it. I didnt jump you on another post for taking something i said and turning it around the other day, because I didnt want to start a fight, but the fact is, that you do it all the time just as you have here,(I beleive with Seahorse).<br /><br />You and I could actually get along if you were not so quick to jump to conclusions.<br /><br /><br />I do not think you are doing it on purpose, I think you just need to look a little closer before you post.<br /><br />In other words, LIGHTEN UP A BIT!<br /><br />OK, now Ive done it. :eek:
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Two Cycle Oil

Here's the problem LubeDude....<br /><br />
by seahorse - There is no ash requirement in the NMMA TC-W3 oil testing procedures.
These remarks would lead any uninformed outboard owner to believe that ash content is not a critical component of a quality TC-W3 oil. It would lead them to believe that since the NMMA does not specify particular ash levels, that ash containing (or low ash) oils are ok to use. And that is misleading. The comment certainly raises argument since it was in reply to my comment about outboards needing ashless oils.<br /> <br /><br />
by seahorse - Merc Premium Plus and Yamaha 2M had higher concentrations of metallic additives than most of the others.
This would lead one to believe that the Yamalube and Merc oil, with their "higher concentrations of metallic additives", are low ash oils rather than ashless oils. When in fact these oils have metallic component levels that would indicate they are ashless (what our outboards need). This comment certainly raises argument since it was in reply to my comment about ashless TC-W3 oils not containing significant amounts of metallic components.<br /><br />
by seahorse - TC-W3 oils were ashless, when some are low-ash.
Here, seahorse is indicating that TC-W3 oils are low ash. In fact almost all quality TC-W3 oils are ashless. TC-W3 low ash oils will usually be dual-rated for air cool engines. No thanks, bad advice. Again, this comment was intended to use rhetoric to prove me wrong.<br /><br />So one has to wonder why, after me going through such efforts to explain the importance of ashless oils in our outboards, why seahorse would post such drivel about low ash oils. :confused: <br /><br />Then we have these remarks...<br /><br />
by seahorse - The oil is tested for deposit buildup, ring sticking, scuffing, lubricity, etc.
Here, seahorse (who claims he knows all about NMMA testing) claims the oil is tested. In fact the oil is not tested or analyzed....the engine is. <br /><br />I won't go on LubeDude, but I know exactly what seahorse is posting and why. I suggest you read into his posts a little closer and review his history of contradicting me. Oh, and since you're the one and only "LubeDude", why don't you give us your technical aspect of ashless and low ash oils.
 

LubeDude

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Oct 8, 2003
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Re: Two Cycle Oil

Originally posted by Forktail:<br /> Oh, and since you're the one and only "LubeDude", why don't you give us your technical aspect of ashless and low ash oils.
Its statements like this that make you seem argumentative and trying to start a fight. (This statement comes accross as "SMART AZZ", I am on your side on this one and have already said you were doing a great job explaining TC-W3 oils. Ive already done this in the past, so You can have the stage on this one.<br /><br />OK, I see your point, (AS YOU SEE IT), but I still do not think Seahorse had an agenda to say that it was fine to actually use anything other than an ashless oil in an outboard. We all have different ways of looking at things, Does everyone have to see things your way???<br /><br />Like I said earlier, LIGHTEN UP A LITTLE. We actually can get along here.
 

Forktail

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Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Two Cycle Oil

LubeDude, I really don't care what "side" you're on here, as taking "sides" was not my intention. My intention was to inform outboard owners about the differences in air and liquid cooled oils in more technical terms, which you avoid and never seem to be able to do. And it's nothing personal, but I certainly don't care to have your approval of what I post, as I do not regard you as an oil expert.<br /><br />Solid technical information is the only true way questions like dartman's can be answered. If you have some of that type of information please add it. Otherwise your personalized posts just pull things off topic.
 
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