Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

walleyehed · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

TheChad, Evinrude received the first-ever EPA award for an outboard for the E-Tec, due to emmissions being so low and the unique design... Everyone thought a 4-stroke would get it, but the E-Tec is more efficient, and nobody can match their warranty program. So far it has met the claims made by BRP and nobody else has fought this claim..

Dhadley · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

if you look at the other big 4 stroke use which is motorcycles

Now youre not comparing apples to apples anymore. Bikes have a gearbox so the motor is very seldom under a load. An outboard is always under a load. Especially if its set up wrong. If we're making that comparison look at car motors in boats. They dont last near as long as the same motor in a car. Even if they do have special engine management systems for marine.

TheChad · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by walleyehed: TheChad, Evinrude received the first-ever EPA award for an outboard for the E-Tec, due to emmissions being so low and the unique design... Everyone thought a 4-stroke would get it, but the E-Tec is more efficient, and nobody can match their warranty program. So far it has met the claims made by BRP and nobody else has fought this claim..

Evinrude may have recieved the first EPA Award, but they are not the only EPA Awarded technology. I'm not saying they arn't the best, they may be. I am unpartial as i have not owned any of them, but to claim 1 as better then any other, for me to believe it i have to see proof because almost everyone will pick a manufacturer of choice, and wont stir away.. That is why i am seeking the facts instead of the personal Pref's. -TheChad

tommays · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

its not apples to apples BUT the big hit everyone gives 4 strokes is theres going to be valve train problems BUT nobody gives any facts that there have been valve train problems i think at this point both types are have reached a complexity level were 99 % of the owners will not be able to due much more than look and wonder why it doesent RUN i have only owned 2 stroke outboards and favor them but the 4 strokes seem to be doing ok also will see how well and e-tec does in saltwater when it doesent get service for 3 years and the water pump needs to be changed tommays

BillP · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by TheChad: 

Originally posted by BillP: At this point my choice would be a 2 stroke...etec first and other brand DFI second. In my opinion, less parts, less general maintenance and less hassle. Merc products wouldn't be on the list.

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What is wrong with Merc products? -TheChad

TheChad, It's like this for me. I have owned a few mercs and many times more OMCs over the years. One of my current and newest motors is a Merc product. Bottom line is Mercs have yet to give me equal or better durability/reliability or be as user friendly as the OMCs. It isn't even close (but I never owned an OMC ficht either). One of the pet peeves with my current 50hp mariner (merc in different colors) is the puny water pump impeller size...almost identical to a 3hp OMC impeller. There is no extra margin for "wear" on the merc impeller...all in the name of using less hp to drive the pump for more hp at the prop. That's how mercs are made. My opinion = Buy a new merc twice as often as a new OMC if you want hassle free service.

TheChad · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by BillP: 

Originally posted by TheChad: 

Originally posted by BillP: At this point my choice would be a 2 stroke...etec first and other brand DFI second. In my opinion, less parts, less general maintenance and less hassle. Merc products wouldn't be on the list.

Click to expand...

What is wrong with Merc products? -TheChad

Click to expand...

TheChad, It's like this for me. I have owned a few mercs and many times more OMCs over the years. One of my current and newest motors is a Merc product. Bottom line is Mercs have yet to give me equal or better durability/reliability or be as user friendly as the OMCs. It isn't even close (but I never owned an OMC ficht either). One of the pet peeves with my current 50hp mariner (merc in different colors) is the puny water pump impeller size...almost identical to a 3hp OMC impeller. There is no extra margin for "wear" on the merc impeller...all in the name of using less hp to drive the pump for more hp at the prop. That's how mercs are made. My opinion = Buy a new merc twice as often as a new OMC if you want hassle free service.

That's respectable. What model's have you had this experience with? 2-stroke, DPI, or 4-stroke? -TheChad

walleyehed · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

TheChad, not to butt-in, but I own 2 Mercs as well as 2 Rudes...My 70HP Merc is newer than my 200 Rude and I work on the Merc twice as much for half the use. I have experience with most manufacturers outboards, about 28 years worth....I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I've run 50HP Merc 4-strokes on state shocking boats, and they were in the shop for something atleast once a week. now these engines get about 500-700 hours a year, but I will ave. that with my own boat as I guide as well as my personal use. I am not biased to a name-brand...I am biased to what engines work. If you don't want the truth, don't ask. "BUT nobody gives any facts that there have been valve train problems". Yamaha had a MAJOR recall on V6 4-strokes with valve problems...

TheChad · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by walleyehed: TheChad, not to butt-in, but I own 2 Mercs as well as 2 Rudes...My 70HP Merc is newer than my 200 Rude and I work on the Merc twice as much for half the use. I have experience with most manufacturers outboards, about 28 years worth....I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I've run 50HP Merc 4-strokes on state shocking boats, and they were in the shop for something atleast once a week. now these engines get about 500-700 hours a year, but I will ave. that with my own boat as I guide as well as my personal use. I am not biased to a name-brand...I am biased to what engines work.

Again, Are thease engines the standard 2-Stroke, or the Direct Port Injected? Being completely different models, Evinrude could make the best 2-stroke, but Merc could make the best Direct Port Injected, just for example... Again so no one misunderstands me, i don't know which is better, if any of them are 'better' then another, I am just trying to keep an open mind, and the knowledge that there is no 1 manufacturer that makes everything better then another... But rather trying to break it down into which models are better. -TheChad

TheChad · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

I think personally I've decided away from the 'standard' 2-Stroke. I will either be going with a Direct Port Injected, or a 4-stroke. That is why *I* am trying to find out which Direct Port Injected might be better, With out being partial to a brand based on the 'standard' 2-stroke experience, when the Direct Port Injected model by the same manufacturer may not be the better choice.. Just trying to keep the playing field level, and unbias base on manufacturer dedication. -TheChad

walleyehed · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

The 2-strokes I own now are all carbed engines...The 4-strokes we use on the state boats are "EFI" engines, and the opti's and std Rudes are "DFI's".. The E-Tec is simular to an orbital injection, as they do not call it a "DFI".

Dhadley · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Around here the major complaint on 4 strokes is the cost of the specified services. I overheard one gentleman at the local marina tell the service manager that the marina that talked him into the 4 stroke never mentioned that the 100 hr service was so much. Imagine that???? Another thing is the fact that they have to run so warm to not "make oil" that the salt just eats up the heads in no time. I saw one of those at the local marina that was just over a year old. Ate right thru the head and filled #3 with salt water. The motor looked showroom clean other than that. I went with the marina owner when he sold it to a salvage yard. The salvage yard had 3 more identical to that one. We've also been involved with propping out 4 strokes that repalced 2 strokes. Folks tend to get really upset when they lose 8-10 mph on a 25' twin rig with 4 strokes of the same horsepower. And it takes longer to plane.

TheChad · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by Dhadley: Another thing is the fact that they have to run so warm to not "make oil" that the salt just eats up the heads in no time. I saw one of those at the local marina that was just over a year old. Ate right thru the head and filled #3 with salt water. The motor looked showroom clean other than that. I went with the marina owner when he sold it to a salvage yard. The salvage yard had 3 more identical to that one. We've also been involved with propping out 4 strokes that repalced 2 strokes. Folks tend to get really upset when they lose 8-10 mph on a 25' twin rig with 4 strokes of the same horsepower. And it takes longer to plane.

I am no expert, but isn't that why you flush your engine with fresh water? I am in IL so we don't deal with salt water here. You guys must be talking about larger boats that don't get taken out of the water, because if i did take mine to saltwater at some point, i would flush it with freshwater when i got home, If proper maintaince is taken, i don't see how that would happen.... But that's with any product, it doesn't matter what engine, or product for that matter you have, if its not maintained properly its going to be a pile of junk. As for the going slower with a 4-stroke.... That i don't understand.. HP is HP, there is no difference between 2-stroke 25HP, and 4-stroke 25HP... True the 4-strokes are heavier, but not the huge amount that people are claiming, Merc for example, the 4-stroke is about 80lbs heavier then their standard 2-stroke, and only about 10lbs heavier then their OptiMax... That kind of weight can't possibly make THAT big of a difference. True 4-Strokes wind up slower then a 2-stroke, but usually 4-strokes have more torque. Because a 4-stroke's power band is at lower RPM, and 2-strokes power band is at the top end RPM. But HP is HP, So i don't understand how you can loose MPH when replacing a 2-stroke with a 4-stroke of equal power. The only way that makes since at all is maybe since 2-strokes usually peak out at a slightly higher RPM, RPM's may equal speed on a boat, but 4-stroke's should be able to compensate that with a different gear ratio. Just my thoughts.. -TheChad

mallardjusted · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Dhadley, TheChad is right, hp is hp. If somebody is losing 8-10mph with the new motors, something else is very wrong (maybe the propping). The top end on both should be about the same. With good dealer support you should be happy with either a newer technology 2-stroke (Tohatsu/Nissan TLDI series or E-Tec), or with proven 4-strokes. I happen to have a new 4-stroke Yamaha, but if the price and dealer support is right I would have no problem going with the newer 2-strokes. I like them all!!!!

Dhadley · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

The little 3 cylinder that I saw at the marina did have lots of ss parts but the heads and block are still aluminum. The guy did flush the motor every time. He took excellent care of his rig. Like I said -- it looked showroom new. Everywhere except where it ate thru in the water passage. As for the difference in speeds -- it has to do with the gear ratios. When you go from a 1.86 to a 2.00 or 2.24 it makes a ton of difference. The 3.3 Yamahas are at 1.75 so going from a 225 2 stroke to a 225 4 stroke Yamaha at 2.0 is really a big difference. That was actually a deal we got into last year. A local guy went from a 150 Yamaha 2 stroke (1.86) to a 150 4 stroke (2.0) on a flats boat. He used the exact same prop and it turned the correct r's on each motor but the 4 stroke was slower naturally. If he used a bigger pitch to gain speed he lost holeshot and too many r's on top. He's happy now though. He has a new boat with a 250 HPDI.

tommays · May 31, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

well now thats some facts on the bad of 4 strokes i like jony/rude 2 strokes but i was also luckey not to own any of the bad ones they did make they made plenty its hard to lose that big of a market share on the other hand i did own one high cost product the

decided that they wanted to walk away from and turn into an high cost NLA parts product i am also haveing a hard time seeing anybodys current hi-teck outboard haveing the long life that the simple outboards from the past had i think the electric will make it very hard to go fishing with grandpops outboard 30 years from now tommays

swist · Jun 1, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

I think one of the issues making all these comparisons so difficult is that all this new o/b technology is really very recent (last 5 years or less). Then add in the fact that most boats aren't really run all that much, it will take a lot longer before more statistically significant statements can be made about what is realiable and what is not. If you look at the automotive world - over the last 20 years they have gone from simple carbed engines to very complex computer-controller fuel injected low-pollution engines, AND they have also become more reliable, and the service intervals are much longer. So it is not necessarily the case that added complexity on an engine means lower reliability and/or higher maintenance. It's just that it takes years of tweaking to get it right. We're not there yet with the new outboards.

TheChad · Jun 1, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

I think swist is right about that. Also Outboards have been 2-stroke their whole life, and i think alot of elder boaters are use to the 2-stroke engines and have a hard time accepting 4-stroke technology, maybe because they've mastered the 2-stroke, and don't quite understand the 4-stroke, maybe its because they just don't like change. -TheChad

Jim Thacker · Jun 1, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by oceansbreeze: Howdy again! I have a question regarding 2 strokes vs 4 strokes. While I know the 2 strokes require oil injection, or oil mixed, and 4 strokes run on straight gas, how does this translate to making a new engine purchase decision? Looking at several boats, (still haven't been satisfied with whats on the market) stumbled across a dealer 30 mins away who sold Tahoe Boats. It comes with Merc 90 ELPTO but for $3,500 more, can have the foud stroke ELPT. There's also a Merc Optimax 90 for $2,900 more... I also looked at a Nordic 17'er that the dealer had a 4 stroke Merc 75 which was maximum rated, but would accept a 90hp 2 stroke as maximum. Obviously, I could probably get the 90hp 2 stroke for several thousand dollars less... such a dilemma! I have read the FAQ page at mercruiser.com about 2 stroke vs. 4, but looking for comments from experience. Hopefully, somebopdy can shed some real light on the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke so I can make a bit of an informed decision. Thanks!

Jim Thacker · Jun 1, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

My nightmare comparison of 2 vs 4 stroke. I have a 18 ft Lund Pro V that will take a 150 HP motor. I do not think I need that kind of power so I bought a 90 HP Yamaha (2 stroke) and was assured it would carry a heavy load and "get up" Well that motor was the best motor I have ever owned. It not only got up..... it pushed the boat at about 38 mph...which was fast enough for me. RPM was around 5200. Just how good was it. I was picking up 7 guys from a portage and ferrying them back to my camp and that damn motor actually got up and plained..... I must have had 2000 lbs in the boat rated at 950 lbs.... yea I know but it was calm.....Anyway it was the best motor for starting maintenanve and power. Two days before the May long weekend in 1999 I ran over a rock shearing off the lower unit. The bad news for me was Yamaha parts were not easily avaialble and it would take 2 weeks to repair. I had been talking "4 stroke" to get in tune with emmissions so talked to the guy about a Honda outboard. HE assured me it was actually more powerful..... bottom line..... I still own it and have gone thru different props to try and get the speed and power.... nada It simply does not have the umph. With me in the boat it will do 32 mph at about 5300 rpm. with any load it has trouble getting up. I did get a fast prop that caused the motor to redline (6300 rpm and that did allow me to get up but speed was comprimised I finally settled for a Praniah Prop that gave me the best performance in terms of getting up, rpm and speed but it still is not like the Yami a..... long and shoret of it is I am awaiting the Yamaaha to get that new induction technology it has on the 150 hp 2 stroke in its 90 hp and I will switch again.... I miss my Yami dahtkk8g

TheChad · Jun 1, 2005

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

I have been reading Spec's, and reviews, and Emmissions ratings. I have decided to either go with a Merc 90HP OptiMax, or a Evinrude 90HP E-Tec. Its going to be hard to decide which of the 2 i choose. I need to get pricing on the Evinrude, because if its far more expensive, then that will have a bearing on my choice. From the tests I have read, the OptiMax 90HP (2.33:1) seams to be faster by about 2-4 MPH then the E-Tec 90HP (2:1) on aprox the same size/weight boat. I Would like to have faith that 4-Strokes are not as bad as everyone keeps claiming, the only thing making me hold off of a 4-stroke is that they are a new technology to outboards, and I havent seen enough proof of their reliability (Then again I havent seen much proof of their in-reliability either)... Also the cost of Oil Changes... -TheChad

Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

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