Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

[danie]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Can I ask for interest sake what is MTBE?

 

[TheChad]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by Damdan:<br /> Can I ask for interest sake what is MTBE?

MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) is a chemical compound that is manufactured by the chemical reaction of methanol and isobutylene. MTBE was produced in very large quantities (over 200,000 barrels per day in the U.S. in 1999) and was almost exclusively used as a fuel additive in motor gasoline. It was one of a group of chemicals commonly known as "oxygenates" because they raise the oxygen content of gasoline.<br /><br /><br />MTBE has been used in U.S. gasoline at low levels since 1979 to replace lead as an octane enhancer (helps prevent the engine from "knocking"). Since 1992, MTBE has been used at higher concentrations in some gasoline to fulfill the oxygenate requirements set by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. (A few cities, such as Denver, used oxygenates (MTBE) at higher concentrations during the wintertime in the late 1980's.)<br /><br />Oxygen helps gasoline burn more completely, reducing harmful tailpipe emissions from motor vehicles. In one respect, the oxygen dilutes or displaces gasoline components such as aromatics (e.g., benzene) and sulfur. In another, oxygen optimizes the oxidation during combustion. Most refiners had chosen to use MTBE over other oxygenates primarily for its blending characteristics and for economic reasons.<br /><br />The Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 (CAA) require the use of oxygenated gasoline in areas with unhealthy levels of air pollution. The CAA did not specifically require MTBE. Refiners may choose to use other oxygenates, such as ethanol.<br /><br />---------------------<br /><br />-TheChad

 

[poolecw]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by INTERNETOUTBOARDS:<br /> Some people like E-tec,<br /><br />Some people like Optimax,<br /><br />Some people like HPDI,<br /><br />Of course the really bright ones like TLDI.

Thats becaue the HPDI is what you sell!

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Well....Yes!....But, we actually sell TLDI. I think you just made my point....Just kidding. Look, they all work. They all work reasonably well. Factoring in price and warranty and marketing ploys, they are all equal in my eyes. I would not turn down any one of them if someone offered me one for free.

 

[TheChad]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

ok,<br /><br />So exactly what is soo much better about the E-Tec as compaired to the Optimax?<br /><br />The 90HP E-Tec is $400 more then the 90HP Optimax.<br /><br />The 115HP E-Tec is $600 more then the 115HP Optimax.<br /><br />The Dealer quoted the E-Tec Pricing, the exact same as the Mercury 4-Stroke at the same HP.<br /><br />So that puts the Optimax in the middle for pricing.<br /><br />I don't have a problem spending $400 more if there's valid reason. But if I (as an amature boater) wont know a difference between the E-tec and the Optimax, Then its money lost to me.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />-TheChad

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

I don't have a problem spending $400 more if there's valid reason. But if I (as an amature boater) wont know a difference between the E-tec and the Optimax, Then its money lost to me.<br />

If you haven't figured out yet what the differences are, and I don't think you have because you still are comparing the E-Tec to the Optimax....you aren't paying attention...<br />The optimax compares to the std DFI Evinrude, NOT the E-Tec.<br />Again, you've been given LOADS of info as to every make, model, and color you have asked about....<br />Your responses lead me to believe you are looking for some "other" answer.....<br />If you have a problem with a 400.00 price difference between the Optimax and the higher tech E-Tec, you really don't know what you are looking for...<br />This whole thread is a troll.......

 

[ziemann]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

So much a troll, that he continued on by starting a new thread and copied and pasted a previous post from above.....<br /><br />troll...troll....troll....

 

[kd6nem]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Last time I looked Calif has not outlawed 2 strokes and forced only four strokes (contrary to what I keep hearing)- only prohibits new older technology engines from being sold (no carburetors or EFI 2 strokes in new engines). SOME few waterways limit to only efi 4 stroke OR HPDI two strokes which meet the standard. Your newest & best high end two strokes are fine here, even in Tahoe. My Bearcat 55 carbureted 4 stroke is not welcome there, however. <br /><br />TheChad said "I Would like to have faith that 4-Strokes are not as bad as everyone keeps claiming, the only thing making me hold off of a 4-stroke is that they are a new technology to outboards"<br /><br />Yeah, pretty new. Not many in regular production until 1961 or so. 45 years might not be long enough for the market & users to decide on their favorite technology, but it WAS proven very viable in the early sixties. Honda? No! Homelite. Which Honda could not duplicate the weight, durability, & performance of for at least a decade after they started making outboards, nearly twenty years after the Homelite/Bearcat begun (and well after the untimely demise of the Bearcat). I can't knock the older 2 strokes for what they were nor the new ones for the absolutely amazing things they offer now- especially how they live so long with so very little lubrication! But 4 stroke technology is not inherintly inferior, at least when the outboard manufacturers have done a good enough job engineering their 4 stroke motors. How many of you guys have two strokes in your tow vehicles? I didn't think so! So why not gripe about the lack of choice here? Yes, weight is not as critical here and no, these auto engines do not live their entire life at WOT. Outboards really DO work hard for a living. The fault of a few engine models is not their particular technology, however, it is all in the particular implementation of that technology by factory design engineers. If Yamaha had a run of bad valves then blame Yamaha, not all 4 strokes. If another company's four strokes are underacheiving wimps, then blame that company for exaggerating their performance claims- they do not deserve your business. In this latter case blame the marketing department. A little integrity could go a long ways. Also beware that a lot of dealers/marinas never bothered to figure out how to prop 4 strokes correctly, not that this was the only issue or is always the case, but it has been too often the case. <br /><br />Base your decision on the real world specifics of individual motors and availability of parts & service for your choice and you'll be satisfied. It may well be that an advanced two stroke will be a better choice for you. I just wish the four stroke bashers would get more specific in their arguments (if/when they actually can) and avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater with all the over-generalizations.

 

[BillP]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by Bearcat Powered:<br /> Base your decision on the real world I just wish the four stroke bashers would get more specific in their arguments (if/when they actually can) and avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater with all the over-generalizations.

Go back and read my first post. That's 9 yrs of real world use with a 4 stroke and over 40yrs with 2 strokes. <br /><br />Reality is comparing modern 4 strokes with modern 2 strokes. From what I see, about 99% of 4 stroke lovers are comparing with old 2 strokes to make a decision. Most already had their mind made up from hearsay (JoeBob has one)so there wasn't a comparative analysis. Something else I see is modern 2 strokes (eTec)showing up more and more on big trailer boats owned by heavily experienced boaters.

 

[TheChad]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Originally posted by Bearcat Powered:<br /> Last time I looked Calif has not outlawed 2 strokes and forced only four strokes (contrary to what I keep hearing)- only prohibits new older technology engines from being sold (no carburetors or EFI 2 strokes in new engines). SOME few waterways limit to only efi 4 stroke OR HPDI two strokes which meet the standard. Your newest & best high end two strokes are fine here, even in Tahoe. My Bearcat 55 carbureted 4 stroke is not welcome there, however.

The Lakes i was refering to that have banned 2-strokes of ANY flavor, are Drinking Water Resivor's. You can run ANY type of 4-stroke, but NO 2-strokes.<br /><br />That is because of Oil in the water, not emissions.<br /><br />-TheChad

 

[jeromeo]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

i think you may be mistaken about all 2 strokes being banned. in the 2004 evirude catalog it shows etecs as "...the exclusive outboard used on the official boats that patrol the lake."lake tahoe was the first to ban two strokes, trying to preserve the pristine clear water.tahoe is in cali/nevada though i may be mistaken also, just pointing out something. happy boating!

 

[jeromeo]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

i think I was mistaken. upon further inspection i think they may be talking about rude 4 strokes.

 

[swist]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Time will tell but I'm not sure at the rate outboards get sold that the industry can over time afford to support the costs of developing and marketing two completely different technologies. I'll bet one of the new technologies dies out eventually over time.<br /><br />One of the problems I have with the 4-stroke is that it smacks a bit of the stern-drive - a square peg in a round hole. Put a 1000 lb truck engine in a boat and then come up with a convoluted, hi-maintenance, lo-reliability engineering kludge to connect it to the prop.<br /><br />The whole idea of an outboard is to put on the transom a simple lightweight package specifically conceived for marine propulsion. In a sense (and I admit some of this is subjective) the four stroke outboard just doesn't seem to fit - all that weight, all those moving parts, a wet sump oiling system which can't be laid on its side or turned upsidedown. Awkward (compared to JiffyLube) oil changing, fussy valve and belt maintenance.<br /><br />Of course as I said earlier, the DI 2-stroke has complexities of its own, so to me the jury is going to be out for a while, but I still bet we sill have a verdict in 5 years or so.

 

[kd6nem]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

BillP,<br />We've both stated how we feel. You like new two strokes as do most. This is fine, I never said they weren't viable or good. They work amazingly well in fact. Look at the previous sentence before the one you quoted. And allow a little room for personal preference, although I take your opinion seriously.<br /><br />Anyway, my point is that generalizations do not usually do much good- it is specifics that matter. Some folks like to make up their own mind with specific facts and others are content to take the word of a trusted advisor without trying to digest the particulars. Both ways have their place. You have seen enough specifics with your own eyes to make up your mind. This is good. You know what you like. This also is good. But most arguments I've seen here on this subject in this thread and many other threads are very general and tend toward repeating personal preference (without realizing it) or are simply a broad summary of past recollections not specifics about specific motors of any given model year. YOU have seen the specifics, this does not mean they have been adequately stated here for me to draw that same conclusion necessarily. A study of 100 or more two stroke outboards and a similar number four stroke's total fuel & maintenance/repair costs over a period of five years would be a great start, as would a breakdown of models by typical failures and operating time between failures. I don't doubt you have the stories to back up your opinion to the point it might be hard to read them all. I like to hear DETAILS or at least accurately recorded statistics. Me, I've more or less made up my mind as have you (not that I have nearly the experience hands on as you have with outboards, although I have turned a wrench in my day) but have reached a different conclusion to what may actually be a somewhat different question: I will not pay that much for any new engine- period. I still believe that four stroke technology is capable of cleaner engines which are at least as durable as two stroke with only a minimal weight penalty and nearly equal performance- and should over their life be roughly equal in maintenance expense. I'm not saying that the ideal four stroke motor is here yet. On the theoretical side there is no reason better four stroke outboards shouldn't be developed. (Marketing forces often interfere with what "ought to happen", though) There are real, practical engineering reasons that four stroke motors are the only choice in industrial & automotive and the primary choice for light aircraft, not that there isn't much room for improvement in light aircraft motors. Fewer gymnastics in getting the desired emission level is just one nod toward the four stroke, longevity may prove to be better although my hat is off to the engineers of the latest two stroke motors. Just because the market's momentum tends toward two cycle technology it doesn't mean it will need to remain that way. Tradition has kept four strokes away for a long time. Two strokes have had a big head start in the light marine world. Sure it will take time to work the bugs out of a new technology. Good thing we don't all judge two strokes by OMC's previous attempt (FICHT) at a wizz bang fancy two stroke. Two strokes aren't ALL perfect either. For now, it may well be that your conclusion is the best. But I wouldn't guarantee it will always be the case.<br /><br /><br />TheChad, WHICH lakes do you refer to? Maybe I've missed something. I've not heard of this yet. I have read the details for most restricted lakes here:<br /><br /><br /> http://dbw.ca.gov/TwoStroke/TwoStroke.asp Calif. restricted lakes <br /><br /> Calif. two strokes/ outboard pollution regulations <br /><br />I have heard a lot of folks say they knew what was OK where. I saw someone try to sell a carbed four stroke as "ready for Tahoe", and have been told "only four stokes are legal there" for Tahoe and other lakes. I remain unconvinced that either is correct in light of the actual regulations. Yes there ARE some restrictions. Best to read for oneself if you plan on boating here in sunny funny California.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

With a DFI two strok unburnt oil doesnt make it into the water.The amount of unburnt hydrocarbons a E-tech puts out is actually lower than most fuel injected 4 strokes. In order to beat the etec emmisions wise the four strokes are going to have to add catalytic convertors, which will add more weight and be a packaging nightmare.<br /> FWIW the MTBE issue is nothing but a scare tactic by rabid greenies. MTBE's only problem is that it is very easy to taste in water in low concentrations. Instead of fixing the issue of leaking underground storage tanks the greemies and the ethanol(IE farm) lobby went after the MTBE makers. The fact remains that MTBE is by far the best fuel oxygenate available.<br /> Actually the whole oxygenated gas thing is a joke. Its only effect on current technology cars is to decraese their fuel mileage.

 

[tommays]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

i am a gas burning guy but you have your head in the sand if you think MTBE has not caused unforeseen problems that are proving hard to clean up<br /><br />the people pushing it had far to much power for it to get kicked that fast and easy if there was not a BIG problem<br /><br />tommays

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

MTBE hasnt caused the problem at all. leaking fuel tanks have. MTBE just makes the problem apparent is it has a persistant taste and smell that is detectable in minute amounts.<br />The people pushing against MTBE where the farm lobby(remeber Bush's 300 billion farm bill of 2000?), which is very powerful and almost every politician from a midwestern state. the fact remain that MTBE is the best oxygenate in almost all respects.

 

[tommays]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

the fact remain that MTBE is the best oxygenate in almost all respects.<br /><br />i agree with that but it was sold as harmless which is not proveing to be the case<br /><br />i guess whats amazing is that so many tanks are leaking so much gas all over the country<br /><br />tommays

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

i can't offer much when talking about the technological issues with these engines. pretty much everything i know has been read here or in a few boating mags.<br /><br />but here's what i can say- i frequent a very large fishing board, focused on the chesapeake bay. a consistent theme i read all the time is how much trouble people have with their yamaha hpdi's (yamaha seems to be the choice around here). everyone loves their yamaha 4-strokes. i've also read complaints with the optimax (especially their noise level at idle/trolling speeds). this is one reason i was excited i found a grady repowered with a yamaha 4-stroke.<br /><br />not much help, but what i could offer.

 

[Bwalker]

Re: Two Stroke vs Four Stroke?

Matt, that may have been true when the technologies first came out, but today they are pretty much bullet proof.