Type C vs ATF fluid?

[jagboy69]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Wow... sorry gang... I didn't mean to start all this. Whatever fluid I did use yielded good shifting at the moment on muffs. I've got FWD/Neu/Rev. Now if only my switch would do the work for me. Turns out my switch is not making contact for reverse. So I've enlisted the help of my friend who's an electrical engineer. He's trying to design a simple circuit that will accomplish the job of the 3 switch nightmare. (Just without using 2 separate switches)

"hunting the right fluid"
Jason

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Don't worry about the discussion. These forums are like going to "outboard college." I actually like it when things get like this, because I always learn something.

On your remote/shift switch problem, there are a number of threads here at iboats which discuss how to substitute toggle type switches for the stock items. I recommend that you do a search for them.

Another possibility, is to find a replacement on EBay. If it were me, I would try the EBay route first. Bear in mind, also, that the Johnson version of the hydro-electric remote, will work on your motor.

Before you do any of this, however, have you actually tested the switch, the wiring and the solenoids? My point is simply that you need to identify the source of the problem for sure, before spending oney to fix something.



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[jagboy69]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Thanks Jay.. I'm learning too.. And I'm looking forward to see what happens with this fluid debate.

Last night I read EVERY post regarding this silly switch. I've seen some pretty good ideas too. Was that your elegant design I saw with the diodes? It appeared to me it wouldn't work for the 5 wire switch that I have. I was unable to see how forward would work. Then again, it was 2am when I was reading all this. Oh, I've done the testing and jumped the wires and have actually made it run in reverse. So it's not a fluid issue at the moment. I've got a tired switch.

Jason

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Forward "works" when both the green and blue circuits are open. The hydro-electric shift system is designed to default to forward, via a spring that pushes the piston in the gearbox all the way forward. When the green circuit is closed (energized), the neutral solenoid is engaged and the piston moves one step backwards, to position the clutch dog in the neutral position. When the green and the blue circuits are closed, both solenoids are energized and the piston/clutch dog are moved into the reverse position. All you are doing when you push the forward button on your ERude remote control, is to open both circuits and hence, disengage both solenoids.

BTW, if you make your own, the correct wire size is 18 gauge.



???

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Update: I'll make this a separate post, because I am addressing the gear oil availibility specifically.

I contacted NAPA, Shell (current owner of Pennzoil) and iboats today, in order to get some clarification on the Type C oil issue.

Shell couldn't answer my question right away and I will have to talk to them again.

I did get a clarification on the availibilty of Type C oil through NAPA and it turns out that this issue ties into availaibility at iboats.

First, the 18-9620-2, is not a NAPA part number - its a Sierra part number. More specifically, the "-2" refers to a 32 oz. bottle of Type C, under the Sierra brand name. The current price at iboats, is $7.13. You can also get a 10 oz. bottle for $5.50. The part number for that is 18-9620-0. Since the 65hp OMC hydro-electric gear box takes 25.3 oz., however, the 32 oz. bottle would be needed in most situations. If you really want to go "hog wild," you can buy a five gallon pail (18-9620-5) for the mere sum of $122.86!

Since iboats sells the Type C oil at an attractive price, I'll recommend it for those who can wait a couple of days for shipping.

The NAPA rep that I talked to is going to do some research for me on availaibility through his store. He does not stock the product in the store, but the regional warehouse might. He also said that he believes it to be the Sierra product, because that's where NAPA gets its currently sold outboard motor parts.

He is going to confirm all this information and let me know the correct NAPA part number and delivery time frame. I think that will vary from store to store - in my case, the local NAPA warehouse is close enough to me, that I could actually go straight to it for purchase, at its retail counter. Others may not be so lucky and have to wait a day, for delivery to the local store. Obviously, this situation could make purchase at iboats more attractive.

I'll report again, when I have additional information.



???

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Wow... sorry gang... I didn't mean to start all this. Whatever fluid I did use yielded good shifting at the moment on muffs. I've got FWD/Neu/Rev. Now if only my switch would do the work for me. Turns out my switch is not making contact for reverse. So I've enlisted the help of my friend who's an electrical engineer. He's trying to design a simple circuit that will accomplish the job of the 3 switch nightmare. (Just without using 2 separate switches)

A few guys have carefully taken apart the original switch and cleaned it up so that it works. That would be the preferred method of fixing it.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Forward "works" when both the green and blue circuits are open. The hydro-electric shift system is designed to default to forward, via a spring that pushes the piston in the gearbox all the way forward. When the green circuit is closed (energized), the neutral solenoid is engaged and the piston moves one step backwards, to position the clutch dog in the neutral position. When the green and the blue circuits are closed, both solenoids are energized and the piston/clutch dog are moved into the reverse position. All you are doing when you push the forward button on your ERude remote control, is to open both circuits and hence, disengage both solenoids.BTW, if you make your own, the correct wire size is 18 gauge.

Easy enough to make with the right switch:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=679-1228-ND . 11 bucks at Digi's massively inflated prices...
I'd also use one of those flip type, spring loaded toggle switch covers to prevent a massive "whoops", like when your elbow hits the switch and you go from WOT Fwd to WOT Rev in 1 second.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Your diagram doesn't make sense to me - I don't see green and blue closed at the same time. In order to get to reverse, that has to happen. Its not green or blue.

There is also the matter of the neutral safety circuit.



???

 

[DSinOR]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Update: I'll make this a separate post, because I am addressing the gear oil availibility specifically.

I contacted NAPA, Shell (current owner of Pennzoil) and iboats today...

First, the 18-9620-2, is not a NAPA part number - its a Sierra part number....

...I'll report again, when I have additional information.

Being a new owner of an old Evinrude, I was trying to learn more about Type C lube last week, and was also wondering if ATF wouldn't do the job. It seems the primary difference between regular LU oil and Type C oil is viscosity.

Anyway, I found 5 different brands of Type C equivalent on the market:

Evinrude Premium Blend - I don't who packages this oil for Evinrude.

Sierra - I don't know if Sierra blends and packages their own, or buys it from another source.

Lubrimatic by Plews Edelmann

Starbrite by Starbrite. Interestingly, the Starbrite website describes how they package products into Private Label containers for other brands. The Starbrite brand can be purchased online for $5 per quart. Pretty inexpensive.

Shipmate by Como. You can buy this oil at Sportsman's Guide, and at Fleet Farm.

I look forward to hearing what you learn from Shell & iboats, and also the skinny on ATF.

Thanks!

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Your diagram doesn't make sense to me - I don't see green and blue closed at the same time. In order to get to reverse, that has to happen. Its not green or blue.There is also the matter of the neutral safety circuit.

Look harder. The switch is used backwards from the way you'd normally think about it, and it's a 3 throw switch.

Switch in position #1: 12 volts goes to neither Green nor Blue (FWD)
Switch in center position: 12 volts goes to Green only (NEUTRAL)
Switch in position #3: 12 volts goes to Green AND Blue (REV)

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

sierra has TYPE C oil, i have had to switch to that, as the local BRP dealers have quit stocking type C.

TD, I had the same experience at my local BRP dealer today. I called the store/shop today and they no longer carry BRP Premium Blend.

I have done some pretty extensive research on this subject during the last two days. I've already have a lot of good info, but need to get a couple of more facts - I'll provide all of it soon.

Stay tuned!



???

 

[jagboy69]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Easy enough to make with the right switch:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=679-1228-ND . 11 bucks at Digi's massively inflated prices...
I'd also use one of those flip type, spring loaded toggle switch covers to prevent a massive "whoops", like when your elbow hits the switch and you go from WOT Fwd to WOT Rev in 1 second.

Here is the switch I am considering seeing mine is trash.. Also from digikey
It's HS16-3sn-ro a rotary.. I can get the white safety switch and my cake too!
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.z_homepage_link=hp_go_button&KeyWords=HS16-3sn-ro&x=23&y=19

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

I made a couple more phone calls today and found out some interesting things.

The first is that BRP Premium Blend is definately still available - this info came directly from BRP. The CSR that I talked to, looked up his inventory and told me that he has lots of it. I think that what is going on, is that local BRP/ERude dealers just don't want to stock the stuff, because there isn't a lot of demand for it.

During the course of tody's research, I obtained a few answers but had another issue pop up. That one has to do with the use of metallic fillers in some ATFs. The information that I received sounded more like rumor than fact, but I want to check it out. I am awaiting an email from a trusted source on the matter.

When I get all of this info assembled, I'll update everyone. I think I will start a separate thread on the subject, though - this one has sort of strayed off into discussions on a fix for a busted shift switch. I also think that the issue is worthy of its own thread, so stay tuned, once again!



???

 

[DSinOR]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Update?

 

[DSinOR]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Did I miss the new thread with all the oil info?

Link?

Thx.

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

ttt

 

[regr]

Hello, guys, just thought you might be interested to know that I have a 1972 Johnson 65 HP Hydro Electric Shift.

My dad purchased the boat new in 1972, I have been running it for more than 40 years now and the gear case is all original inside,for the past 35 years we have been using dexron 1, II, III and now 4, all of these years with as I said no issues and the gear case has shifted and worked perfectly since day one. I'm getting some water leaking now into the leg now after a few hours on the water so it will be time to pull it apart and put seals in it and look for any water damage from the past few years.

In about 1977 on of the master techs for Hunters Sport and marine told my Dad and I that we should be using the Dexron when type C was unavailable , because our lake is very far from any dealer we started to use the dexron and never went back to type C.

FYI

Reg

 

[regr]

Hello, guys, just thought you might be interested to know that I have a 1972 Johnson 65 HP Hydro Electric Shift.

My dad purchased the boat new in 1972, I have been running it for more than 40 years now and the gear case is all original inside,for the past 35 years we have been using dexron 1, II, III and now 4, all of these years with as I said no issues and the gear case has shifted and worked perfectly since day one. I'm getting some water leaking now into the leg now after a few hours on the water so it will be time to pull it apart and put seals in it and look for any water damage from the past few years.

In about 1977 on of the master techs for Hunters Sport and marine told my Dad and I that we should be using the Dexron when type C was unavailable , because our lake is very far from any dealer we started to use the dexron and never went back to type C.

FYI

Reg

 

[regr]

Hello, guys, just thought you might be interested to know that I have a 1972 Johnson 65 HP Hydro Electric Shift.

My dad purchased the boat new in 1972, I have been running it for more than 40 years now and the gear case is all original inside,for the past 35 years we have been using dexron 1, II, III and now 4, all of these years with as I said no issues and the gear case has shifted and worked perfectly since day one. I'm getting some water leaking now into the leg now after a few hours on the water so it will be time to pull it apart and put seals in it and look for any water damage from the past few years.

In about 1977 on of the master techs for Hunters Sport and marine told my Dad and I that we should be using the Dexron when type C was unavailable , because our lake is very far from any dealer we started to use the dexron and never went back to type C.

FYI

Reg

 

[Tim Frank]

Hmmmmm....
Triple post.,,in a three year old thread.....and a hijack to boot.

Are you new to the forum by any chance?