us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

drewmitch44

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Im about to place an order with them cause of all the word i hear about their product being good and prices being the cheapest. What you guys think about that? And there is some kind of hazmat charge for 5 gallons or something. I am about to call and think about it before i order. Im also going to wait to see what you guys think. I think that the resin is the biggest cost of this rebuild that im doing it sucks that everything is so expencive. I plan on getting my foam from them when we all get that stimulus check from uncle sam. Thanks for all your guys's opinions!
 

drewmitch44

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Think im going to get the 435 Standard Polyester Layup Resin. I think that is the best thing for what im doing. I just dont understand how they calculate how much hardner they give you. If you click this link it will take you there and you can see how they give you the hardner. Its kinda funny to me. I need 2 BBQ sauces with a 6 piece nugget. So if i get a 12 piece nugget i need more than 3. You know what i mean. here is the link...http://www.shopmaninc.com/polyesters.html
 

drewmitch44

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Wait a min. here i thought that iboats just sold epoxy resin but i see there is some poly there. Whats up with that boatyard resin. Is that layup resin? I need resin without the wax! I have 7 gallons of resin with the wax already in the resin. They are 1 gallon pails with 2 big tubes of the MKEP hardner each. I am going to use that for the last lay up of everything im doing. Im tired of sanding that wax off just so i can lay up another layer. So whats up with the iboats poly also? Id rather order from here if its at a compareable price and if they can tell me the date of the resin. uscomposits can tell me the manufacturer date of their resin. But for this forum id pay extra for the resin! Anyone know? It says finishing resin.
 

erikgreen

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Finishing resin has wax. Poly resin won't harden in the presence of air, so you cover the final (finishing) layer with wax or plastic wrap to let it harden fully. If the wax is in the resin already, it'll come to the surface and provide the same effect.

It's important to keep in mind that the hardener for poly is a catalyst, not a chemical component. It doesn't become part of the final product, it just catalyzes the hardening process. More catalyst is a faster reaction to a point, and less is slower to a point. "To a point" is because catalysts, chemically speaking, can not infinitely speed a reaction up. There's still a limit, it's just higher. As long as you use enough MEKP to get to max speed, you won't need to use more.

Epoxy is different... the hardener component is part of the physical composition of the final resin, that's why it's a fixed ratio of resin->hardener.

Better chemical minds than mine will jump in, I'm sure. Ask oops where he gets his resin.. I'm sure he buys a ton of it. (maybe literally)

Erik
 

oops!

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

yeah andy...put that waxed away man...it will drive you crazy...

you might have to ask i boats about the boatyard special.....i think its a waxed product......it says top coat.....

heres the skinny as i understand it....

resin has a limited shelf life...the purer the resin, the less chance of it gelling in the can, before it is sold.....
because of this...most boat production lines use the cheapest grade of resin they can get...(within reason)...they might add some purer resin for a slightly better product before spraying or laying up.....

chances are ...the stuff at wally world is a really good resin because it needs a longer shelf life.....

the average cost on a gallon is between 20 and 30 dollars a gallon...

i dont know how much you've done compaired to what you are going to do...youve got a big job there.....you have to glass in a new gas tank and the whole works. (to go from closed bow to open)......so id think of at least 10 gallons....(some local shops will buy back unused resin)

i have used over 30 gallons...unwaxed.....the 1708 really drinks.

you are looking for a 50-50 mix of glass to resin ratio......(perfect world)

catelyst or mkep...is used between a 1-2.4 to 100 ratio....if you use the metric system...thats 1 ml per 100 ml..(cold cure) or 2ml per 100ml...(hot cure).....metric is easy....just get a bucket with the lines drawn on and a shot glass with the same.....

resin is very forgiving....but the stregnth is best when used in the manufactures tollerances.

hope that helps.

cheerd bud
oops
 

oops!

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Ask oops where he gets his resin.. I'm sure he buys a ton of it. (maybe literally)

Erik

heh heh heh......1708 drinks. :eek:

ill take a pick of the used containers today.....

.btw guys....check out darren neimeths post.....its called checklist......with drews closed to open...qc's woody'...atraxias ob to i/o vw motor conversion.....some really neat stuff goin on here:)
 

erikgreen

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Here's a few comments to add to what oops wrote:


resin has a limited shelf life...the purer the resin, the less chance of it gelling in the can, before it is sold.....
because of this...most boat production lines use the cheapest grade of resin they can get...(within reason)...they might add some purer resin for a slightly better product before spraying or laying up.....

chances are ...the stuff at wally world is a really good resin because it needs a longer shelf life.....

What happens is that poly resin is always slowly hardening. If you leave some on a shelf for long enough it'll harden on its own, faster if there are impurities that speed the reaction. If you take resin and heat it under a lamp, it'll harden that way too (but unevenly and not as strongly as using MEKP).

Intuitively then, it makes sense that some people keep their resin in a fridge to extend shelf life.

catelyst or mkep...is used between a 1-2.4 to 100 ratio....if you use the metric system...thats 1 ml per 100 ml..(cold cure) or 2ml per 100ml...(hot cure).....metric is easy....just get a bucket with the lines drawn on and a shot glass with the same.....

resin is very forgiving....but the stregnth is best when used in the manufactures tollerances.

Specifically, it's best when the rate of cure as effected by the MEKP or other catalyst (there can be others, MEKP is most common/cheap) matches the cure time the manufacturer expected. Remember that what's happening is a solid polymer is being created, and a polymer is made up of many enormous long chain molecules... all the little molecules have to have enough time to link together for best strength.

Erik

PS: Fascinating how much polymer chemistry I've read through in the last couple years...
 

salty87

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

i've gotten some of my poly from us composites, some locally. shipping is brutal but the local place doesn't carry heavy cloth. us composites sells a measuring squeezer, just like stabil. i've been sticking pretty close to 1% but have gone higher for rounding corners.

i'd be more concerned about the manu date buying from worst marine or anyplace where it's sat on the shelf...you gotta be crazy to buy it there.

i had a pretty long list by the time i was done with brushes, cabosil, foam, squeegees....i'm telling myself it was cheaper to buy it all at the place that had it all.
 

BillP

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I kept several old cans of poly and epoxy resins for 10+ yrs and they never gelled or thickened. When I popped the lids they were same as fresh resin and I made sample batchs to see what would happen. In regard to kicking and getting hard, there was no difference between old and new. I also had a gallon of poly spill on my shop floor. Part ran into a space behind a built in work bench that I couldn't reach for cleaning at the time. 2-3 yrs later I took the bench out and the pool of resin was gelled and tacky like thick honey. Air and uv light probably made the difference.

bp
 

reelfishin

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I have several gallons of resin which came from a defunct body shop over 15 years ago, I just opened one and used it to build a speaker cabinet with no problems, it worked just fine. The hardener which came with each gallon however had all but vanished, it didn't harden, the tubes were empty and brittle as if it had leaked out and evaporated.
The resin was in steel gallon jugs, stored in a pretty dark paint cabinet. It sat on the bottom near the floor, so the temp probably never got very high.
A buddy of mine also has two 55 gallon drums of poly resin that have been in his shed for at least 20 years, I know he used some of that with no problem only last fall. That stuff has frozen, over and over and still works fine. He had more of it but used most of the third barrel to do a new floor in his boat two years ago. I see no ill effects whatsoever. If I hadn't read it here, I wouldn't have ever thought about fiberglass resin having a limited shelf life.
The cans I have are all marked Duro brand and most likely came from an auto parts store. I got them when the shop I worked for closed up in bankruptcy way back in the 80's. I also found a Dixie cup that I had some resin in sitting on the back edge of the furnace, it had been there for at least 12 years, it was covered over in years of shop dust and over spray but the contents were pretty much still liquid, with only slight gelling or thickening, which was most likely due to the dust mixed in. I mixed in some old resin from a tube that survived just to see what it would do and it heated up and hardened just fine. It actually liquefied once the hardener began to heat the mixture a bit, I used it to fill a crack in the shop floor. The price on each gallon can of resin was marked as $4.49, so that may help to tell how old it was. A gallon can now in the local parts store is about $48 per gallon. I haven't checked Wally world, but I don't think the local store carries it in gallon cans. (They recently dropped even carrying automotive paints and even the little touch up paints, I was pretty upset at that since they used to carry an excellent cold galvanizing spray that worked very well.
 

BillP

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

i've gotten some of my poly from us composites, some locally. shipping is brutal but the local place doesn't carry heavy cloth. us composites sells a measuring squeezer, just like stabil. i've been sticking pretty close to 1% but have gone higher for rounding corners.

i'd be more concerned about the manu date buying from worst marine or anyplace where it's sat on the shelf...you gotta be crazy to buy it there.

i had a pretty long list by the time i was done with brushes, cabosil, foam, squeegees....i'm telling myself it was cheaper to buy it all at the place that had it all.


What makes you think "worst marine" sells old stock? Fact is...they don't let stock sit on shelves long enough to expire. It's a policy and agressively enforced. Some items slip by and gather dust but not many. When old stock (resin, paints, caulks, etc) sits too long they clearance it out at high discounts before the mfg shelf life expires. If the shelf life is close to expiration it's generally taken off the shelf and sent back to the vendor...it's called a "back haul'. It's even done on paints, resins, caulks, etc items that don't have an expiration. Dated paper charts, cruising guides and electronic map CDs and SD type cards are back hauled too. There actually is less chance of getting old stock at wm than most other walk in retail stores.

bp
 

salty87

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

^^ all of that explains much of ebay

if you're re-doing a deck then you have cash to blow if you're buying at wm.
 

ondarvr

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

The shelf life on most promoted resins is 90 to 120 days, unpromoted resin is normally longer, at 6 months or more. The shelf life refers to it still being in spec, gel time, viscosity and thix can and will change over time, so we say for "X" amount of time it will stay in spec. As it ages, some of the properties will change, it still may be usable, but for production work it may not be exactly what the customers need to build boats at the speed or quality they require. For repair work older resin may, or may not work well, you just have to test it before using it. Gel times tend to get longer and the viscosity will drop, if the container isn't sealed well, it may loose styrene and become thicker though. The more expensive resins tend to be a little more stable and most resin for retail is formulated for a longer shelf life, so it may still be usable for much longer than what the self life indicates.
 

oops!

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I kept several old cans of poly and epoxy resins for 10+ yrs and they never gelled or thickened.

bp

reel fishin quote " I have several gallons of resin which came from a defunct body shop over 15 years ago, I just opened one and used it to build a speaker cabinet with no problems, it worked just fine"

end quotes.........................................................................................


i wonder if they were using a different mix 10-20 years ago.....

i have resin in the shop right now that has spilled on to the top of a can......it gelled (no catylest) in two days.....kept on the cold concrete floor.....room at 70 degrees eye level....cold lower.

cheers
oops
 
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BillP

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

^^ all of that explains much of ebay

if you're re-doing a deck then you have cash to blow if you're buying at wm.


400+ stores and 30+ yrs in business says they must be catering to the right people.

bp
 

ondarvr

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

oops!

The formulas were different 10+ years ago, DCPD resin and blends of it, weren't as common and DCPD resin is not as stable as other types. What you have is a DCPD blend, they don't need much help to start gelling.
 

oops!

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

yup thats what i thought....

thats why these guys are still able to use the 10 some odd year old resin....
(i understand it may not still be in spec)

my stuff gells as soon as it is exposed to air fo a day or two.......and the stuff in the bottom of some three month old cans are gelling on the surface.

cheers
oops
 

BillP

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

yup thats what i thought....

thats why these guys are still able to use the 10 some odd year old resin....
(i understand it may not still be in spec)

my stuff gells as soon as it is exposed to air fo a day or two.......and the stuff in the bottom of some three month old cans are gelling on the surface.

cheers
oops

What brand resin gelled for you? I know from first hand experience (within the last few months) at least one brand of poly resin sold today that doesn't gel anywhere near that fast in an open atmosphere.

bp
 

ondarvr

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

He's using a production boat building resin from a major supplier, that's the reason for the shorter shelf life. He's not getting a normal resin sold in the retail market.
 

BillP

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Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

oops...What brand name is on the label and/or who is the resin mfg of the resin that gelled in two days of open atmosphere without catalyst?

bp
 
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