us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

picks can bee seen of the cans up close on the hull extension thread.

fiber tek is the name on the cans.....but that doesnt mean much, because everybody re packages it under their own name

 

[BillP]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I can probably back track the name to mfg.

Thanks,
bp

 

[ondarvr]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I know the name and so does oops!, but it has less to do with the manufacturer than the type of resin. If you really want, or need it, it can be supplied. By they way, it's not from me, but we do have the same type of product.

 

[BillP]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

I don't want or need it...but want to stay away from it.

bp

 

[ondarvr]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Just stay away from any DCPD blended resins, most retail resins are ortho's and if you ask for it you can get ISO or VE. Only a few retail places sell DCPD blends, most go right into production shops that use it up fairly quickly. All Of the resin producers make these blends and they're by far the largest portion of the resin market.

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

hi billp...

just want to say ive learned a lot from your posts....

im a little confused here....that resin im using is an industry standard....
has been for years.....

i thought you were in the boat building industry?... in know your semi retired....

what do you do?/ did you do?

cheers
oops

 

[BillP]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

oops,
Yes, I used to work full time in the glassing industry and did a fair share of glassing...but no longer keep up with it other than for home type projects and in casual talk with those in the marine trade. I retired from corp America in 2003 and took a pt job at a marine supply house in 2006 to feed my (and close friends) boating habits...I currently own 11 boats if that helps perspective. I started glassing in the early 1960s and never stopped, slowed down from professional full time glassing to home projects yes, but never stopped. As far as industry standard resin for boat factories, I haven't asked anyone about it. For my needs the only thing that has mattered was if thixotropic or orthotropic. Depending on the type work, that makes a big difference to the glasser. The type of resin that gells in 2 days has never been a topic with anyone I've talked to. I suppose it costs less...probably hazmat restrictions like the ones that made a substitue for styrene cheaper for volume users.

bp

 

[drewmitch44]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Resin that jells in 2 days????? How much MKEP do you put into it to get it to jell in 2 days? That seems like a long time. do you mean harden or jell? If it only jells in 2 days that sucks then someone used way too little hardner. Or if you didnt use any hardner you must have gotten some really really really really really weak resin that was non waxed and the kind that they dont bottle for retail. If it jelled in a couple days it must have been really crappy mix of resin. I would not use it for boat construction if that is the case. If it was mixed too weak with hardner than thats going to be a pain to get off if it dosent harden. If it is no hardner than get rid of it cause it was not mixed correctally and put into a barrel and sent around to rip people off that cant tell except for the smell of it. If it gells in a couple days i would not use any boat that that resin was used to construct. There is no excuse for that. Its missing some ingredieants and some important ones!!!

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

hey billp......yer offically a salty dawg

thats quite a long time itchin and breathin fumes...
but as far as my proj goes...where were you when the resin hit the glass?
wanna come up and do some farring?

For my needs the only thing that has mattered was if thixotropic or orthotropic. Depending on the type work, that makes a big difference to the glasser.

bp

im not sure what the difference is between these?...can you please elaborate?.....i mean what do you mean by these.

and how do these make such a big difference to the glasser?....ive been reading a bit on them today........i just love to learn

and as far as the stuff ive got.......the big companys use resin so fast they dont need a resin with a long shelf life...so they go with a different grade that gives it good properties, but does not need the long shelf life...it makes it cheeper for them to buy.

cheers
oops

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

and drew....my resin ...if spilled on the can....with out catylest...will gell in two days....(grow a skin on it)....it is a professional grade boat resin.....(that means the cheepest stuff they can buy that will still work)

when your building 40 boats a week...and using that much resin...you dont need certain properties that the home user would...ie a can sitting on the shelf for a year or two....this stuff is ment to be used right away. and the manufacturers can save money.....100 dollars on every boat (just a round example) x 30 boats x 52 weeks...adds up pretty quick

 

[BillP]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

hey billp......yer offically a salty dawg

thats quite a long time itchin and breathin fumes...
but as far as my proj goes...where were you when the resin hit the glass?
wanna come up and do some farring?




im not sure what the difference is between these?...can you please elaborate?.....i mean what do you mean by these.

and how do these make such a big difference to the glasser?....ive been reading a bit on them today........i just love to learn

and as far as the stuff ive got.......the big companys use resin so fast they dont need a resin with a long shelf life...so they go with a different grade that gives it good properties, but does not need the long shelf life...it makes it cheeper for them to buy.

cheers
oops

oops,

I figure somewhere between 10k-15k hrs full time glassing and another 10k-15k doing project work with glass involved. Anyway, I may be confusing isotropic with orthotropic. Quite frankly can't remember which and can't remember the technical/chemical properties either. It should be easy to get from mfgs but will probably have no meaning unless you are glassing as a profession.

Basically, what makes the difference in a practical sense for glassers is how the resins kick. One thickens on a more linear scale...but is more predictable on when you have to stop glassing. It stays in an "unworkable gel" longer before finally kicking. In delicate piece work that can be undesirable and waste production time...but can be valuable on vertical surfaces with long work times on thick laminations to help prevent sag (although I never heard anyone in the boat biz talk about it...nor have I known any resin salesmen to know this.

The other type stays very liquid and abruptly kicks off. It's for quick work when the glasser can dial in glassing times to kick at the exact moment the glasser takes his hands off the job. Pro glassers used to make a log of time, humidity, temp, ratios, kick time, etc. This gives info for all the variables that affect a glass job. It makes life easier and takes the guesswork out of how much catalyst to use and how much working time is given. An example is when glassing surfboards...which is where I cut my "glassing teeth" on. Too long of kick time and the foam sucks resin in and makes pin holes and pin hole size bubbles between the weave...not usually seen by an untrained eye. However, the glass job is weak because the foam sucked resin away from the glass. It takes about 5 minutes to glass one side of a surfboard and the resin needs to kick asap after the handwork is complete. Pros dial the kick to happen within 10-15 seconds of the hands off stage...every time in all weather combinations. That's why I tell people to log data on their glass jobs. As a side note this is the very reason I don't like to use epoxy...there is no changing ratios to make it kick at the moment you need it to. Epoxy likes to run off stringers and requires babysitting until it gels.

Are we off topic of what?

bp

 

[ondarvr]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Billp

What you're refering to is the cure profile (it can go by other names but this term is easy) and it's determined by the promoter package, base resin and fillers if used. The promoter package can be adjusted for a rapid gel time, or a long one, rapid would be 12 minutes or less, slow would be 25 minutes or longer, (this is a general time range) this is at 77F. The second part of the cure is the gel to peak, this is the time between when it gels to when it reaches it's highest temperature. Each can be adjusted for the type of part being made, thin smaller parts typically use a short gel time and a fairly quick gel to peak, thicker and larger parts tend to be made with longer gel times and longer gel to peaks. This longer gel to peak helps to keep the peak temperature lower in the thick areas. These specs can be adjusted so the type of part being made cures correctly.

There are also several different types of catalysts that can be used alone or blended with each other to fine tune it even further and allow one resin to do several different things well by just switching between types or blends.

Isotropic and orthotropic are properties of a subtsance refering to it's strength in different directions, they could refer to a cured FRP composite, but not in the way we're discussing.

Thixotropic refers to how a liquid can change it's viscosity when agitated or sheared. This can be adjusted for each use also.

Orthophthalic and Isophthalic are types of resin, with ISO being the stronger one.

I listed these because they are very similar terms, but have different meanings.

If you never discussed any of this with a resin rep, then you either never talked with one, or you never brought it up, as these are the basics.

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Are we off topic of what?

bp

WHO CARES.....the i boats people (us posters) are really getting a lesson on this entire thread.

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

. As a side note this is the very reason I don't like to use epoxy...there is no changing ratios to make it kick at the moment you need it to. Epoxy likes to run off stringers and requires babysitting until it gels.
bp

There are also several different types of catalysts that can used alone or blended with each other to fine tune it even further and allow one resin to do several different things well by just switching between types or blends.

see coors........that polys got its places...

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Billp

What you're refering to is the cure profile

These specs can be adjusted so the type of part being made cures correctly.

There are also several different types of catalysts that can used alone or blended with each other to fine tune it even further and allow one resin to do several different things well by just switching between types or blends.

actually, in all the books ive read, ......this is one of the beautys of poly.

 

[Coors]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

see coors........that polys got its places...

Yeah, but just slap on the epoxy, and not worry about poly technicalities...

 

[jcsercsa]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Yeah, but just slap on the epoxy, and not worry about poly technicalities...

i was wondering about this !! To cool thanks coors !!! John

 

[ondarvr]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

Epoxies have some very good properties, but also have their issues for production work, Like BillP said "the technicalities.." of polyester are what makes it so much easier to use in most situations than epoxy. Polyester can be adjusted for ease of use in many ways that epoxy can't, this makes it very user friendly when compared to epoxy. This is also part of the problem, it can be used incorrectly and still work fairly well, so people assume that if it got hard, everything is OK. Many times this results in less than satisfactory repairs and when they fail, all fingers point to the resin. Epoxies tend to be used a little more correctly, they normally come as a kit with directions for that exact formula and people tend to follow the directions closer.

While there are situations where epoxy is a much better product for the job, for the most part, the type of repairs discussed in this forum are easily handled by polyester. It comes down to what the person wants to use, it's not really a right or wrong issue and a good argument can be made for using either product.

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

While there are situations where epoxy is a much better product for the job, for the most part, the type of repairs discussed in this forum are easily handled by polyester. It comes down to what the person wants to use, it's not really a right or wrong issue and a good argument can be made for using either product.

can we make this a stickey....

har har har yuk yuk the hee!....

ok back to the thread now...

 

[oops!]

Re: us composites the cheapest Poly resin???

oops,

It takes about 5 minutes to glass one side of a surfboard and the resin needs to kick asap after the handwork is complete. Pros dial the kick to happen within 10-15 seconds of the hands off stage...every time in all weather combinations.
bp

i just cant imagine being a good enough glasser to have a kick time within 15 seconds of hands off.....

especially with the nuances of a hand layup, ....wow