USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

[SnappingTurtle]

I just spoke to friend in Florida (regular Hurricane call), who is rebuilding a older wooden boat that he intended to restore to it's original look, while updating the power, mechanicals, & controls. He called the Coast Guard to ask about the newer flotation methods, for a project of the sort he is doing. He wanted a safe, reliable boat for his family when he was finished, but wanted to use another method of flotation (not foam).

They could/would not give him an answer on the phone, but spent several minutes asking about what his intentions were with the boat, when he was finished. He said to use it for cruising and some fishing, and they asked if he would be selling it, and he said probably at sometime in the far away future, but that was not why he was rebuilding it. It was for himself and his family to use and enjoy.

They promised to call back with answers. Two days later they showed up at his shop unannounced. They had the telephone number, and got the address from that. They were there to view & check his boat building business. It is his business address, but it is not a boat building business. He is a cabinet & custom furniture designer, with the university design degrees to back him up.

They then informed him that because it was being built for resale at his design business, he would have to have it tested to todays “Level Flotation” requirements. They want to drill it full of holes in a tank to see if it meets the present day USCG requirements for new boats. He insisted that this boat is not for resale, it is for his private use only, all to no avail.

He said, they acted like he was some kind of a criminal. He is not, he comes from a family that is a long line of LEO.

He does have a business neighbor, that he IS working with building & rebuilding old wooden runabouts for sale, but they were not interested in these boats, or that business. These boats meet, or exceed all present requirements. He was honest, and open about this fact when asked.

He was just using the skills he learned working with the business neighbor on his private project boat. But it was just that, a private project boat.

He wanted a nice safe boat, but he didn't want to spend his time & money to rebuild a boat, only to have the USCG drill holes in it, which is what they are doing with the boats they are building for sale at the other business.

Hi is ****** off, to say the least, and is considering scrapping the whole project now.

Do I smell the insurance & boat industry lobbyist, putting pressure on the USCG to choke the backyard re-builders to death?

Is it coming to the point that all things old, must now be continuously updated to meet the ever changing government standards?

 

[seven up]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

ain't dat sumpin

 

[erikgreen]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Hmmm... I think it's a bit early to call out "conspiracy!".

He's not exactly a normal backyard boat builder... he's working on a boat for himself, yes, but it's in his place of business. That just happens to be next to his other place of business, which is a commercial boat shop. It's a grey area, to say the least.

In court I'd seriously doubt that he'd have an easy time arguing that even though the other 20 boats on the premises are for sale, this particular one is not, just on his say-so... I mean, what did he expect?

I agree that he, like any other amateur boatbuilder (or in this case, repairer) should be free to do what he likes on his own boat in his own business. But things would be different if his business was, eg. appliance repair.

Anyway, I think the CG visiting were either someone bureaucratic with time on their hands, or else he's got some prior history with the CG and his boat building business. They have absolutely nothing to say about what he does with his boat (or boats, even the ones being built for sale) until AFTER he sells the boats. He hasn't run afoul of any regulations until after the deed is done.

So he can tell the CG to get bent in this case and they can take him to court after he sells it... which he's not going to do.

It kinda sounds like we're not getting the whole story here, though. The coast guard doesn't waste time showing up on the premises of a boatbuilder to tell him to follow regulations unless there's some prior reason to believe he won't, and is currently engaged in violations. The auxiliary, maybe....

Erik

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

They might tread carfully...someday they may run into the "Chaumont Butcher" ....They would view things in a differnent light from then on...

 

[marquette]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

maybe the CG has a new director that used to work for the BATF. this sounds like their tactics sniffing around for a violation based on an innocent phone call. the end result is that honest ciizens stop calling and asking for advice for fear of reprisal. isn't it better to give people all the advice and help they need to build a safe boat rather than harass them about whether it will ever be sold.

 

[Driven1]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Oh S**t! Just left them my number!

 

[Driven1]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Ok, ladies and gentleman. Just got off the phone with a very nice gentleman from the USCG Safety Division by the name of Po. I told him that I was restoring a boat for my own personal use with no intent of resale and was confused about flotation requirements relating to restorations.

In a nutshell, there are NO Federal or USCG requirements whatsoever relating to restoration of boats for personal use by an individual. You can do anything you want, or don't want, to do. Flotation or no flotation. No regs at all relating to restoration by an individual.

He went on to say that they encourage the use of the current flotation standards for personal safety but they are by no means mandatory.

He also touched on it from an accident standpoint. If you were to be in a accident on the water with another boat, the other party's lawyer may bring up the point that your boat doesn't meet current USCG Safety Standards. Your argument is, it doesn't have to.

He even went on to suggest alternative flotation methods after I explained what soaked foam does to an old boat.

He also stated that there may be one little caveat. There is a possibility that some states may have their own set of requirements above and beyond those of Federal Rules and the USCG. You would need to check with your individual state for those.

It was a nice little chat. I don't expect the Feds at my door tomorrow. I also suggested to him that he make a suggestion to make that information available on the USCG Website. He said he would.

There, that's the end of it!

I think in the case of the story given by the OP, that yes, there is a blurry line there and that's probably why they messed with him.

Moderator. A sticky perhaps?

 

[Mark42]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

FYI at the top of this forum is post titled "Coast Guard Rules". In there you will find the CG regulations for professional boat builders, and the rules and recommendations for home boat builders. No need to call the CG and ask, they already published and update the information regularly.

 

[Driven1]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Sorry Mark, you're a great inspiration but in this case you're wrong. I asked about The "Backyard Builders Pamphlet." It is no longer in print or provided by the USCG. It's now just a memory floating about endlessly on a river of ones and zeros.

It was also geared towards the individual builder that had intent to sell the finished product and didn't apply to the restoration of a boat by a private individual.

So yes, a phone call was required to get the correct answer. There are no regulations that apply to a restored boat by an individual owner who has no intent to sell the end product.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

driven1, what were the alternative methods that were disscussed in your phone conversation...

and Snapping Turtle; could be that your buddy is the benefactor of some reports or inquiries that have been made of his neighbors boat building business...

(Oh, and why snapping turtle, please don't take this wrong, but to this day whenever I hear or read the words snapping turtle, I get a mental image of being shown how to clean one with an aircompressor... It made quite an impression on my at the time young mind )

 

[fishrdan]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

They want to drill it full of holes in a tank to see if it meets the present day USCG requirements for new boats. He insisted that this boat is not for resale, it is for his private use only, all to no avail.

Sooo they want to take his project boat, drill it full of holes and try to drown it...

Sounds like a Salem Witch boat trial

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

(Oh, and why snapping turtle, please don't take this wrong, but to this day whenever I hear or read the words snapping turtle, I get a mental image of being shown how to clean one with an aircompressor... It made quite an impression on my at the time young mind )

I had a neighbor when I was really young that loved to pour gasoline on turtles and frogs then light them on fire. I hope your reference to aircompressors is not along these lines.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

He was interested in alternative methods being used, or to be used in the boating industry, by those with the money to do large scale R&D and to push these new methods though a large Government watch dog agency, the USCG. A private or a small time commercial boat builder does not have the resources to jump these hurdles. He is involved in a separate business as of this year because of his extensive design and wood working skills, with a experienced (over 40 years) boat builder but they are sticking to traditional methods of flotation due to cost factors, I.e. foam.

These boat designs are commercial productions, and are being test by the USCG, and they (the company) ask/volunteered for the test. It is a legal, law abiding company. They are doing well in a bad market, and as such have a few local builders that don't like that fact. They offer a hand made quality product at a fair price and have a backlog of orders. That being said, the one company has nothing to do with the other.

It is not connected in anyway to the other business. They are both in the same industry park (there is only one in the small town where they live), but so are several hundred other businesses, many owned by other boat builders and car customizers. The auto customizers also work on private projects at their place of business, and don't receive visits from the Department of Transportation.

If he has space in his small woodworking shop, why would he not rebuild his small wooden runabout there, instead of his carport in a residential neighborhood? If he has the wood working skills from his experience, and the eye of a designer, why would he not use those to do the best job possible. If he has years of solving problem issues behind him, of innovative design processes, why wouldn't or shouldn't he try something new in the flotation, or at least be able to ask the Coast Guard if this method has been tested and approved with out suspicion.

Innovation is after all, what made America what it is today, but maybe wont be tomorrow if we don't allow it to continue.

If he was a welder, a mechanic, or possibly a fiberglass expert, would it be any different. Would they not also use their knowledge in restoring their project boat.

Would this prior knowledge automatically make them guilty of privately producing boats for commercial resale. No.

iboats forum is full of semi professional “hobby” boat rebuilders, how would they feel if the USCG showed up unannounced to check them out.

As “wca_tim” suggested, I think the USCG had probably received a call from one of the companies in the area complaining about him, prior to his call.

The more I think about it, the more I think he just has some jealous neighbors who wished to make his life difficult, and have attempted to misuse the Coast Guard for this purpose, and they seem to have only been to happy to help.

He said he had no problem with their visit as such, but it was there condescending attitude that bothered him, and the method they used to trace his address. Had they ask to see his boat on the telephone, he said he would have loved for them to come by to give him any expert advice they could provide, and he would have welcomed them into his shop. He has nothing to hide, and wasn't trying to. He said he was treated as if he was guilty of doing something wrong, although he wasn't doing anything wrong. This seemed to upset them, more than if he had actually been guilty of something.

I really think the USCG has more important fish to chase.

He won't be submitting the boat for USCG flotation test as they said he should, because it is for private use, and is not a prototype for a commercial production. He may now have a hard time with the registration (according to them) though when it is finished. If so he will sell it. It will just be sold out of the country, which is not what he intended when starting the project. He just wanted a newly rebuilt safe & reliable classic for his family.

It seems if you have the skills to due such a project, you are now considered a professional, and are hindered from completing and registering it. If you don't have the skills you can do what you like, safe or not, and slip it through the system.

He had gone through all the documentation provided by the USCG, but most that they provide on the Internet is years out of date, or no longer there at all (dead links). He just wanted actual up to date information, and because of this he is now under suspicion of some unknown wrong doing.

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Oh and just to ad to this post, neither I, nor my friend is, or ever was anti-USCG. He has never had a run in with them, or the police.

He also worked for years as a volunteer with them in "Search and Rescue" in Florida. This is why he thought he could just call them on the phone, and ask questions, he had always had a good feeling when dealing with them in the past. This seems to have now changed.

I didn't write the post because I wanted to bash the Coast Guard as a whole.

I am just questioning their present day practice and the methods they are now using. Is it their new role in “Homeland Security”, or is it pressure from boat industry in trouble, that is causing this change of relations between the USCG and the general boating public?

P.S. He never did get a answer to his original questions about alternatives to foam as a floatation. His questions seemed to have been forgotten in their chase after imagined infractions on his part.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

I am just questioning their present day practice and the methods they are now using. Is it their new role in ?Homeland Security?, or is it pressure from boat industry in trouble, that is causing this change of relations between the USCG and the general boating public?

I don't think they are using the stated "practice and methods". It sounds more like one of the local competitors of your friend called the CG up and suggested some close inspection would be needed... EG he suggested your friend was doing so well because he was building boats for smugglers or similar, with hidden compartments (illegal in some states and federal waters).

I've never heard of this sort of thing happening to anyone else, and I'm sure this thread would have brought out stories of similar problems with the CG.

I'd suggest your friend lawyer up and pursue the source of the complaint.. he should be able to either get the CG to back off and apologize if they just had a bureaucratic bug up their rears, or if it was a false report by an "informant" he could find that out too. Odds are good if one of the other builders caused trouble and got away with it, he'll do it again.

To answer your question, if the CG showed up in my yard I'd show off my boats and offer to give a tour of my little workshop, then tell them to get bent if they suggested they needed to destructively test it. Then I'd get a lawyer

 

[erikgreen]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

To be a little clearer: The USCG doesn't have enough people to waste time harassing backyard boat builders. They have lately even been turning over their life safety duties to their reserve and auxiliary. They still do most search and rescue, but their main duties now include "securing our borders".

Which is a separate load of crap (they're trying to recruit boaters on the great lakes to watch for invading Canadians, among other things) but it takes a LOT of time and people.

I feel for your friend, and I understand his perception of "when did this change?" but I really don't think it has changed. The coast guard is just as helpful and friendly as it's always been (take that as you will) and isn't engaged in a war against backyard boat builders.

Unless they have some "evidence" that someone is doing something illegal, eg an "anonymous tip" or a previous violation, they don't have the people to spare to even look at the problem.

The USCG is like most other big government entities. They're not malicious and evil, they're apathetic and schizophrenic.

Erik

 

[SnappingTurtle]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

To be a little clearer: The USCG doesn't have enough people to waste time harassing backyard boat builders. They have lately even been turning over their life safety duties to their reserve and auxiliary. They still do most search and rescue, but their main duties now include "securing our borders".

Which is a separate load of crap (they're trying to recruit boaters on the great lakes to watch for invading Canadians, among other things) but it takes a LOT of time and people.

I feel for your friend, and I understand his perception of "when did this change?" but I really don't think it has changed. The coast guard is just as helpful and friendly as it's always been (take that as you will) and isn't engaged in a war against backyard boat builders.

Unless they have some "evidence" that someone is doing something illegal, eg an "anonymous tip" or a previous violation, they don't have the people to spare to even look at the problem.

The USCG is like most other big government entities. They're not malicious and evil, they're apathetic and schizophrenic.

Erik

They had no warrant to search and he didn't ask for one, nor did they say what the purpose of the visit was, other than to look at his boat. Snooped around the shop a bit, glanced at the boat for awhile, and then left, with little said other than what I already posted.

It wasn't a friendly, thanks for calling, always at your service visit.

He, as I said before comes from a family of LEO, Texas Ranger (if I remember right) & Sheriff (South Texas drug runner country), there now retired. All were regular visitors in the past to the FBI's schools, for such things as smuggling & smugglers. I never really pressed his family for information as to exactly what they did when we were young, and visited them, because you just don't do this. They were fun to be around & nice to me, and that is all that mattered.

This is the closest he could be connected to any crimes of this type, and would put him firmly on the side of the hunter, and not the hunted.

He is not some goody two shoes, but he is a honest, hard working family kind of guy. He does let loose, and enjoy life occasionally, but mostly he just works hard and donates time to the community where he lives.

I would guess that like FEMA, their (the USCG) budgets have been shifted to chasing “Evil Doers” in our country, instead of what they were originally conceived for.

Kind of sad, that at a time when they are asking the general boating public to take over the previous duties for no pay, they are turning on those that in the past helped to preform some of these “Search & Rescue” as volunteers. He said that with the cost of gas, the false alarms, the arrogance of the people he had been searching for recently, and the last incidence with the USCG, he would not be going out anymore.

We don't talk but about once a month or so, unless there is a hurricane in his neck of the woods, so it will be awhile till I get a update.

I am glad it is not a regular occurrence with members here, and hope this was just an isolated incidence.

Still would like to know what the accepted USCG alternatives are to foam for flotation.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

They had no warrant to search and he didn't ask for one, nor did they say what the purpose of the visit was, other than to look at his boat. Snooped around the shop a bit, glanced at the boat for awhile, and then left, with little said other than what I already posted.

Yeah, they weren't there to look at floatation.

If he'd asked them for a warrant they would have walked away. Since he didn't, they were free to look around a bit for anything to confirm other information they already had.

This wasn't a public service visit, it was a warrantless search for evidence of criminal activity. Someone has fingered your friend.

 

[Driven1]

Re: USCG Flotatation Standards for rebuilds

Tim, He talked about using closed cell foam blocks or sheets under the deck instead of pour foam so that the bottom of the hull doesn't get water sealed in stringer/transom areas either by entrapment or soaking. His main point was that those types of materials could be easier to replace if it became necessary. Or rather than foam under the deck at all, go with a Level Flotation style system where most of the foam is under the gunnels and on the interior sides of the hull, leaving the bottom of the hull free of foam altogether. And during that part of the conversation, he again stated that flotation was not necessary.

We didn't touch on the possibility of liter pop bottles, ping-pong balls, or old inner tubes. Considering that no flotation is necessary at all for a restored boat, I suppose you could get away with trying just about anything you wanted, short of lead ballons.