Use of Sea Foam

[myoldboat2]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

How about the FTC?
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.shtm

that appears to be a lawsuit based on misrepresentation, i.e. false advertising. it does not present any new scientific evidence to debunk the sae published results.

without going through every line of the article, take this one paragraph...

According to the FTC complaint, these claims and similar ones falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear. (--misrepresentation--) In fact, the complaint alleged, most automobile engines are adequately protected from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, (--misrepresentation--) whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not, according to the FTC. Finally, the FTC alleged that Slick 50 neither coats engine parts with a layer of PTFE nor meets military specifications for motor oil additives (--misrepresentation--) , as falsely claimed.

the bold clause would appear to be proven false by the sae papers--if the UBC is indeed the same as Slick 50 (i have no idea). but the bulk of this ruling is about sleazy false claims. i have no respect for the way Slick 50 or any other additive is advertised. it disgusts me. and again, i don't pour in teflon additives--i use oils that have an additive package including ptfe in an old gmc truck that i have, not in my boat (that only sees merc 25w-40, some day i may switch to their full synthetic).

but the federal trade commission is not a respected engineering society. i would think you could do better (if the papers existed, that is).

 

[myoldboat2]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

MMO is REALLY bad in gasoline engines. Any time you add oil to gasoline you increase the potential for detonation. In a boat, detonation can severely damage an an engine.

HT32BSX115, what are your thoughts on fogging the engine for winter layup? i'm not saying it will cause detonation... the fogging is done at a lower rpm and then in the spring the engine is started and run at a lower rpm to clear the oil. but i've always thought fogging is a good thing, to avoid oxidation in the combustion chambers. and of course, for many years now i've fogged with, you guessed it, MMO. good or bad?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

SAE happens to be a "for profit" company that publishes "for profit" papers that anyone wants to get published there. SAE does no testing on its own and gave no opinion on these papers. SAE is a publisher only...that's all they do. Please show me one opinion on these papers by SAE....sorry...they don't exist.

There are numerous lawsuits by consumer organizations and the Federal government against many of the teflon additive companies. There are tests that actually show that teflon additives contributed to engine failures. I can not believe there would still be anyone left foolish enough to still be using this stuff.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/..._Oil__Is_That_Additive_Really_A_Negative.html

"This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant."

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

The Psychological Placebo

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/..._Oil__Is_That_Additive_Really_A_Negative.html

"You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That's the million-dollar question, and it's just as difficult to answer as why so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any other number of questionable activities. We know they aren't good for us - but we go ahead and do them anyway.

Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the "psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.

Even better, there's that wonderfully smug feeling that comes with thinking we might be a step ahead of the pack, possessing knowledge of something just a bit better than everyone else.

Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to believe that there's some magical mystery potion we can buy to help us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our engines run longer and better. I doubt that there's a one of us who hasn't fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We just want it to be true so bad that we can't help ourselves."

 

[dr_bowtie]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

the question is...

not why add an additive but which one...?

what is the whole purpose of adding an additive...? especially in an older engine...


Yes adfding oils to fuels can cause detonation which is very bad...but the amount added if you follow the direction will not cause it but it will enhance a thorough burn rate...

you will usually get detonation when there is more oiul than fuel in the cylinder like when you have a broken ring...and the engine is running temp...

I know this from my engine building experience and racing where you lose a cylinder from oil and it melts something...usually a piston..

it happens when you push more power out of an engine than what it was designed to handle....

additives to clean an engine should be done in strict moderation and not every time...the Lucas stuff is some of the better stuff where when ,ixed right does work very well plus raises the octane level....just by fooling the fuel into thinking it is something it isnt...

the only normal additive tha I would personally add is the Zinc and Phosphate additive for those of you that insist on using regular oil...

older oils used to have alot of Zinc and Phosphate and these are the additives that keep the engine from wearing...parts like flat tappet camshafts depend on these chemicals for proper break in and use to ensure long life...

most oils these days do not have enough if any at all...Shell Rotella and Amsoil is a few of the oils that still do...most others have NONE...

for older engine I would suggest putting a supplement in to add these back in...

I do this in ALL engine break ins and more older vehicles that dont have cats on them especially vehicles with flat tappet cams...

if you run good fuel and use good oils you shouldnt need to clean your engine with other additives as with proper maintenance it should be clean...

if you insist on using fuel additives in a boat motor I would use half the recommended dosage just because the boat motor will see more upper rpm than lower unlike a car or truck....

 

[myoldboat2]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

bruceb58, you're quoting an outdated 1992 article (originally printed in Road Rider, lol).


as to your other comments...


> SAE happens to be a "for profit" company...

SAE is a 501(c)(3). the IRS calls these "charitable organizations".


> ...that publishes "for profit" papers that anyone wants to get published there.

um, no. you're not a member, are you?


> SAE is a publisher only...that's all they do.

wow, seriously? i guess you're not familiar with the thousands of SAE standards that the society develops and maintains. yes, they also publish them, but to disavow the meaningful part, the development, all i can say is... wow.


if you don't believe in oil additive packages containing ptfe, great, don't use them. and feel free to ignore the scientific work that has been done and not disproven.




.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

I have worked with the SAE standards. I am an electrical engineer and used to work for a division of GM. What I meant is that the SAE just publishes the papers. They don't do any research on the validity of the claims in the papers.

You are right about SAE being non-profit. They are a large organization that has a lot of income in many areas however. They have paid emplyees and have extrordinary expenses which they can not cover solely by donations. That was my point.

Point is. I don't really get swayed by an article written by the company that is trying to sell me something. SAE did nothing to verify the claims made in the papers.

Jeez...why did I get sucked into this discussion!

 

[Sea'Scape]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

Jeez...why did I get sucked into this discussion!

I'm feeling bad that I asked the question about Sea Foam in the first place. I think I have a problem with some bad fuel that I am trying to run through and i was considering using Sea Foam to help clean up after the bad fuel.

I guess I'll just run the fuel through quicker and not bother with any additive.

BTW the problem was stalling at planing speed and occasional coughing. I had the engine tuned and checked, plugs replaced, and a tune up kit installed which helped but didn't completely solve the problem. There was no water in the fuel, hence the suspicion that the fuel is bad. This was early season fuel from a marina.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

Don't feel bad.

You can't add anything to the fuel to make it good again. If it is bad, there is no bringing it back. If you ran bad fuel through your carb, then you may be in store for a carb rebuild. Did you replace your fuel filters after you ran the bad fuel through?

 

[rs2k]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

I'm going to stay out of the oil battle.... but I'll get into the sea foam one.


I have used A LOT of sea foam over the years. I have found that it really does wonders in automobile four stroke and about all two stroke engines, but I have not seen it do much to boat four stroke engines. I believe that's because boat engines are usually under constant load while automobile engines are not. Since a boat engine cannot be grannied there is less carbon build up in the combustion chamber which make sea foam useless. There's no reason to sea foam a boat engine if you go out and give it an Italian tune up every time you use it.

I've been told many times that a good way to clean the crankcase of an engine is kerosene. I have never tried this myself though. I've just made more frequent oil changes to get the crankcase clean.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Use of Sea Foam

Quote:
Originally Posted by HT32BSX115
MMO is REALLY bad in gasoline engines. Any time you add oil to gasoline you increase the potential for detonation. In a boat, detonation can severely damage an an engine.

HT32BSX115, what are your thoughts on fogging the engine for winter layup? i'm not saying it will cause detonation... the fogging is done at a lower rpm and then in the spring the engine is started and run at a lower rpm to clear the oil. but i've always thought fogging is a good thing, to avoid oxidation in the combustion chambers. and of course, for many years now i've fogged with, you guessed it, MMO. good or bad?

Fogging an engine is FAR different than using MMO or any other naptha/oil mixture continuously in gasoline.......


Many engine manufacturers (Mercury included) suggest fogging an engine when it's "pickled" -------- Nothing wrong with that!

The engine pretty much cleans itself out after the first few min of running.....and it's not "loaded" so there's far less chance of detonation (due to the fogging oil)

ANY light oil will work to "fog" an engine. All you want to do is coat internal metal surfaces to help prevent rust formation on them while the engine sits in a high humidity environment. The "fogging" allows it to get inside efficiently.


That's not the same as adding Kerosene, Diesel, Jet-A1, JP-8, or Seaspit, Snake Juice, MMO or any other Naptha/oil mixture etc to gasoline in the tank.

Anytime you add oil, Kerosene, diesel fuel etc to gasoline you SEVERELY lower the Octane number. If the engine is then loaded heavily (like a full throttle holeshot) you can get severe detonation.

It happens almost EVERY TIME a piston aircraft engine is mis-fueled with Jet fuel and it takes off. It's never 100% Jet-A because if it was the engine would quit shortly after it hit the carb or fuel injection system.

It's 1/2 or less so the engine usually doesn't quit right away. but the mixture usually hits the engine around take off.


I don't know if anyone has actually done octane number tests with either calculation or motor method for different levels of gas/oil mixtures because there's really NO level of oil-in-gasoline that is safe for any 4 stroke cycle engine...............
(that anyone will recommend that is........AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT the companies that are trying to sell the stuff!!!!!)

I've been told many times that a good way to clean the crankcase of an engine is kerosene.

That's infamous "engine flush" you could use diesel or Kerosene.

If the engine is SO DIRTY (sludge) that you need to do that you are at extreme risk of breaking "chunks" loose which would plug oil passages.

If one of those "chunks" plugs an oil supply passage to a main or rod bearing, CAN YOU SAY "SPUN BEARING"? (and busted rod, hole in the side of the block etc.......)

Just change the oil regularly with any modern detergent oil and you'll never need to "flush" the engine

Some here have successfully used diesel/kerosene to help remove water in the oil. but that's not an engine that's "dirty"......it just has water in there that emulsifies quicker and easier with diluted (very thin) oil.

I am an electrical engineer

Yeah me too ....BSEE CSUF 1978..........I knew there was something "wrong" with you!

Originally Posted by bruceb58
Jeez...why did I get sucked into this discussion!

Oh come on Bruce! You love this!