V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

[LilRedNeckGirl]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Well, im not gonna post a bunch of torque and rpm numbers. Thats MFG hype in my book.
My thoughts are, factor in your tow weight, miles towed, and such.
then consider your ability to put fuel in the tank of the tow vehicle on a daily basis, and how important the extra MPG is.
Without argument, a V8 is always a better option when your towing anything over 1500 pounds behind the vehicle. Understand that tow weight is a Max limit, and streight weight does not account for wind resistance that treanslates into added resistance / weight that you are pulling.
Im not sure about your V6, but a lot of them are just cut down versions of the V8. They do not have the dependability or guts of a V8, and deliver less in HP and torque, typicaly reving much higher to reach a compareable level of preformance.
I prefer a V8 anyday. We use two vecicles for towiong. My husbands 318 mopar mag tows the camper or boat easily. I use a 6 cyl as a tow vehicle, but its a Cummins turbo diesel. I wouldnt even think of a gasoline 6 cyl as a tow vehicle.
Bottom line, any vehicle can pull a light weight. but how close to the limit are you pushing it, and what are the long term effects and risks to the rig ? only you can answer that.

 

[BlueLightSpecial]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Well, im not gonna post a bunch of torque and rpm numbers. Thats MFG hype in my book.
My thoughts are, factor in your tow weight, miles towed, and such.
then consider your ability to put fuel in the tank of the tow vehicle on a daily basis, and how important the extra MPG is.
Without argument, a V8 is always a better option when your towing anything over 1500 pounds behind the vehicle. Understand that tow weight is a Max limit, and streight weight does not account for wind resistance that treanslates into added resistance / weight that you are pulling.
Im not sure about your V6, but a lot of them are just cut down versions of the V8. They do not have the dependability or guts of a V8, and deliver less in HP and torque, typicaly reving much higher to reach a compareable level of preformance.
I prefer a V8 anyday. We use two vecicles for towiong. My husbands 318 mopar mag tows the camper or boat easily. I use a 6 cyl as a tow vehicle, but its a Cummins turbo diesel. I wouldnt even think of a gasoline 6 cyl as a tow vehicle.
Bottom line, any vehicle can pull a light weight. but how close to the limit are you pushing it, and what are the long term effects and risks to the rig ? only you can answer that.

Totally agree! Glad to se another Mopar Fan! My stable includes a '79 Power Wagon, and an '87 Ramcharger that I just finished swapping in a 12 valve Cummins. If you want a real truck, get a Dodge. I bet this will stir the pot real good!

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Totally agree! Glad to se another Mopar Fan! My stable includes a '79 Power Wagon, and an '87 Ramcharger that I just finished swapping in a 12 valve Cummins. If you want a real truck, get a Dodge. I bet this will stir the pot real good!

Ok so Im really going to stir the pot, you can pity all us aussies now after you check the two links, they're not the same identical cars but it'll give you an idea on what Im up against here.

aussie car
http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/det...8 4294957561&silo=Stock&Range=Price:Min,Max~1

american car
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detai...field=PRICE&certifiedOnly=false&&aff=national

Look I love the american pick ups and such but we really don't have the same affordable market you have. For us we have the following costs involved.

*example*
A: Car in the us $50000
B: shipping to aus $5000
C: import duties and fees $10000 ish
D: RHD conversion >$20000-30000
E: compliance and taxes $5000-$8000

Total cost of $50000 pick up around $90000-$100000:facepalm:
and thats only a rough guess, I know its dearer than that but I cant think of the exact prices.
hence why its allot more realistic to buy what is already on the market and was sold here OE, I mean its fine if you have the disposable income to blow $100000 on a pick up but i'd probably buy shelby mustang and take a really long holiday if I did.

I am counting down the days when ford goes to the global platform and we have dealer access to the F trucks, new explorers and expeditions but until then I have to make do.

So I'm glad for the responses from everyone but as far as towing vehicles go we are pretty limited in the under "waste of money" category

Its looking like at this point I may just get it as a third car and pick and choose, its a really good price. (if the misses doesn't shoot me )

I do get both sides of the argument for and against, everyday fuel costs don't bother me much as im retired and spend most of my days mucking around with my 9 month old boy, so I don't drive around much and no commuting.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Downshifting a gear reduces stress on the power train and has only a slight negative effect on your fuel economy.

In theory, yes... In real world fuel injected vehicles, downshifting 1 gear can instantly cut your mileage in half. Why you ask? Open/closed loop fueling... As a brief overview, closed loop fueling is for lower load/rpm conditions, your vehicle is using its O2 sensor to watch the mixture and adjust it to target value, which is usually close to stoich. Open loop fueling is used for high load/rpm conditions, and the O2 sensor is ignored. The ECU just dumps in extra fuel to keep the engine safe and make power, based on what amounts to an excel spreadsheet with columns for load and rpm.

Anyway, towing a moderate to light load, your vehicle can stay in closed loop most of the time. The instant you pull it down a gear, the engine load is going to be lighter than before, but the rpms force the ECU into open loop. (open loop is triggered by high load OR high rpm) Your mileage takes an instant nosedive. (i'm only speaking about mpg's, there are lots of other issues with not downshifting I'm not going into) Although I haven't personally had a chance to play with it, I highly suspect that vehicles that use cylinder deactivation tie that to open/closed loop also. The instant you are in open loop conditions, all cylinders are active, even if the load is low.


(My hobby is tuning high performance EFI engines, I deal with the above OFTEN, I do my own road & dyno testing of the exact conditions above)

 

[gtochris]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

How much towing DO you do? If your happy with your vehicle and it's been reliable, I'd keep it, the 4.6L V8 available in 2003 wasnt a huge powerhouse- 230HP here in america...Yes the torque is higher but you would be buying someone elses 9yo car.

 

[jumpjets]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

I have a 2002 ford explorer with a V6. I tow right at the limit of 5000lbs, or 2700kg. I think the engine does fine, and has enough power to safely move the load. My worry was with the other systems, so I upgraded them.

Transmission: I put synthetic ATF in the automatic trans, and I put a fan on the front mount transmission cooler. This way, it will keep the trans alive longer if I have to start from dead stop often on hot summer days. Total cost was less than $100USD.

Brakes: I put heavy duty brake rotors, hi performance pads, and DOT 3+ fluid into the brake system. It helps stop the vehicle a little better, especially under heavy load.

Tune up: I cleaned the MAF, and put in new plugs, wires, and other misc maintenance parts to keep the engine running in top shape.

Those upgrades made my exploder a pretty damn good towing vehicle. The best upgrade you could do though is a set of 3.73 gears in both axles. That will make it much more responsive to towing, and it was a factory option, but most exploders didn't come with it. A cold air intake, or a catback exhaust might help out a little on power and economy, but I don't think they are worth the cost. I'm unaware of any aftermarket companies that do PCM tuning for exploders, but smokingcrater might know of some, since he dabbles in it.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

How much towing DO you do? If your happy with your vehicle and it's been reliable, I'd keep it, the 4.6L V8 available in 2003 wasnt a huge powerhouse- 230HP here in america...Yes the torque is higher but you would be buying someone elses 9yo car.

well actually I can't believe how much towing I do, Im sure it will cut down over winter but during the summer months It seems quite a bit. I'm constantly towing the boat about once or twice a month to see family, the trips range from 400km to 2700km, thats one of the reasons why I did look at late model diesels. But yeah mine does it ok.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

I have a 2002 ford explorer with a V6. I tow right at the limit of 5000lbs, or 2700kg. I think the engine does fine, and has enough power to safely move the load. My worry was with the other systems, so I upgraded them.

Transmission: I put synthetic ATF in the automatic trans, and I put a fan on the front mount transmission cooler. This way, it will keep the trans alive longer if I have to start from dead stop often on hot summer days. Total cost was less than $100USD.

Brakes: I put heavy duty brake rotors, hi performance pads, and DOT 3+ fluid into the brake system. It helps stop the vehicle a little better, especially under heavy load.

Tune up: I cleaned the MAF, and put in new plugs, wires, and other misc maintenance parts to keep the engine running in top shape.

Those upgrades made my exploder a pretty damn good towing vehicle. The best upgrade you could do though is a set of 3.73 gears in both axles. That will make it much more responsive to towing, and it was a factory option, but most exploders didn't come with it. A cold air intake, or a catback exhaust might help out a little on power and economy, but I don't think they are worth the cost. I'm unaware of any aftermarket companies that do PCM tuning for exploders, but smokingcrater might know of some, since he dabbles in it.

They are the same upgrades I did to mine as well, although for some reason the best upgrade that I did that helped the towing was actually not intended for that, it was just because I liked how they looked. I put 20" wheels with 275/45/20 on it. I found that when I did that The car was noticeably more stable, especially around corners. I found my fuel economy improved by nearly 2LPH on average and that my stopping distance improved a heap. I know that most of that stems from having less sidewall flex and improved road holding but it surprised me just how much of a difference it actually made.

I'll look into those gears I wonder what gearing the v8 came standard with?

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

The 4.6 modular v8 is by far and above a superior motor to the 4.0...Without going into a bunch of details the 4.0 is a very and i mean very old design...You've never seen one in f series now have you.. It will provide better off line accerlation...better top end econ... along with power ...Been selling ford for 20 yrs I beleive thats how old the 4.0 is..

Remeber this a 4.6 mod motor with a simple bolt on supercharger can do about 375 hp with no tweaking of the internals ..Do that to a 4.0....and its a running grenade.Im qite sure the v8 has a better tranny in that year class if i rember correctly and one other litte tidbit..im quite sure its a awd and not a 4x4. Hmm 4x4 seems to be a option but very rare Notice the towing capacity of the 3.55 axle vs the 3.73...Thats a big thing in Ford.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/rv_trailer_towing/2003/2003_SUVs_Windstar.pdf

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

The 4.6 modular v8 is by far and above a superior motor to the 4.0...Without going into a bunch of details the 4.0 is a very and i mean very old design...You've never seen one in f series now have you.. It will provide better off line accerlation...better top end econ... along with power ...Been selling ford for 20 yrs I beleive thats how old the 4.0 is..

Remeber this a 4.6 mod motor with a simple bolt on supercharger can do about 375 hp with no tweaking of the internals ..Do that to a 4.0....and its a running grenade.Im qite sure the v8 has a better tranny in that year class if i rember correctly and one other litte tidbit..im quite sure its a awd and not a 4x4. Hmm 4x4 seems to be a option but very rare Notice the towing capacity of the 3.55 axle vs the 3.73...Thats a big thing in Ford.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/rv_trailer_towing/2003/2003_SUVs_Windstar.pdf

hey mate, cheers for the reply. I don't think ford ever release the 2wd or awd version here? all ford explorers have selectable 4x4 with hi and low range. thanks for the heads up it seems that the v8 does indeed have a much higher tow rating. gotta keep things legal I was told that the supercharger off of an f150 lightning will improve the torque a heap which will be what I want, I'll only run about a 4 pound pulley so I wont be grenading the motor or drive.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

In the 4.0 yes 4x4 is std...However in the v8 most are awd. Now that is on this side of the pond..Over there who knows Ford did a lot a version's in europe..By the way do you guys have the new 4 door ranger or f100 over there?

 

[Cheetah 210es]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

4x4 IS awd. I think there's some confusion here between full time 4wd and selectable (transfer box, hi lo range, free wheel hubs etc).

 

[jkust]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

4x4 IS awd. I think there's some confusion here between full time 4wd and selectable (transfer box, hi lo range, free wheel hubs etc).

Yes I see this all the time. On demand awd vs calling something a 4x4 or 4 wheel drive. 4x4 can be either.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Yes I see this all the time. On demand awd vs calling something a 4x4 or 4 wheel drive. 4x4 can be either.

They are close in effect but very different in design. To make it simple awd is a system that is a push pull..That is either the front wheels or rear wheels pull or push the vehicle as the primary drive...when wheel slip occurs again either the front rear wheels engage assisting the vehicle in traction. Made simple its a front to rear system and not as robust as a 4x4

4x4 is different in the fact that it it works left to right and is a solid engagement system...Now that may seem trival but with a 4x4 you can turn hard right and step on the gas in deep snow lets say or heavy mud...4x4 will PULL you in the direction you turn becuase it is a left to right traction system...Awd will not do that remeber its a push pull that is the rear wheels are pushing you straight..yes if whell slip occurs the front will pull you in a direction but the rears are pushing straight and that can cause some issues.

Example your going uphil around a corner with awd your wheels slip losing traction and you cant turn as well..Now with 4x4 if that happens if you step on the gas the 4x4 will pull you in the direction you are turning and if you let off the gas....you will lose the turning effect.

Years ago Ford came up with something callled control trac...In essence it used speed sensors to detect wheel speed variation and would mechanically couple into 4x4 in 6/10 of a sec....It was the best of both world's and of course in a 4x4 one could split the transfer case..aka gear reduction

Todays tech is different again i believe it could be said that 4 wheel drives are really front wheel drive with rear assist and yet you can still split the transfer case...Some of the crossovers have 4 wheel indpendent awd along with gyro scopes that keep the vehicle level at all times they use the brakes to accomplish this....Maybe E4OD might chime in i beleive hes a ford tech.

In the end a 4x4 for a heavy boat is more robust and will take the abuse...Hmm ever seen a F series with AWD...Not yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Trac

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

4x4 IS awd. I think there's some confusion here between full time 4wd and selectable (transfer box, hi lo range, free wheel hubs etc).

Yep I would agree with you, There is some confusion as to what has what, what it really is and what markets came out with what.

The ford explorer's that were released here in Australia in all variants were all 4wd, not awd. The explorer's here do run a hi and Low range 4wd, although they are constant 4wd, they do have low range gearing and off weight distribution between wheels. although a different set up to a patrol or landcruiser they do indeed still classify as a 4wd. To be honest with you I was not even aware that ford released these in a two wheel drive at all? it doesn't make much sense to me. I believe that the reason why ford only released the 4wd versions here in V6 and in V8 is because there is no way a two wheel drive explorer would have sold in our market.

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

In the 4.0 yes 4x4 is std...However in the v8 most are awd. Now that is on this side of the pond..Over there who knows Ford did a lot a version's in europe..By the way do you guys have the new 4 door ranger or f100 over there?

We do have the new ranger but not the f100, Im not a huge fan of the ranger, they were one of the white fleet cars that I used whilst I was in the army, I really don't like how they drove, Bearing in mind I only discharged a couple of months ago so we did have the new ones as well. And even though they were better than the old ones, they still feel a bit tinny and cheap to drive. IMO

 

[evolution1985]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

They are close in effect but very different in design. To make it simple awd is a system that is a push pull..That is either the front wheels or rear wheels pull or push the vehicle as the primary drive...when wheel slip occurs again either the front rear wheels engage assisting the vehicle in traction. Made simple its a front to rear system and not as robust as a 4x4

4x4 is different in the fact that it it works left to right and is a solid engagement system...Now that may seem trival but with a 4x4 you can turn hard right and step on the gas in deep snow lets say or heavy mud...4x4 will PULL you in the direction you turn becuase it is a left to right traction system...Awd will not do that remeber its a push pull that is the rear wheels are pushing you straight..yes if whell slip occurs the front will pull you in a direction but the rears are pushing straight and that can cause some issues.

Example your going uphil around a corner with awd your wheels slip losing traction and you cant turn as well..Now with 4x4 if that happens if you step on the gas the 4x4 will pull you in the direction you are turning and if you let off the gas....you will lose the turning effect.

Years ago Ford came up with something callled control trac...In essence it used speed sensors to detect wheel speed variation and would mechanically couple into 4x4 in 6/10 of a sec....It was the best of both world's and of course in a 4x4 one could split the transfer case..aka gear reduction

Todays tech is different again i believe it could be said that 4 wheel drives are really front wheel drive with rear assist and yet you can still split the transfer case...Some of the crossovers have 4 wheel indpendent awd along with gyro scopes that keep the vehicle level at all times they use the brakes to accomplish this....Maybe E4OD might chime in i beleive hes a ford tech.

In the end a 4x4 for a heavy boat is more robust and will take the abuse...Hmm ever seen a F series with AWD...Not yet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Trac

Um no I can honestly say that I have not seen an f series with awd? even though the explorer does have a different set up to a traditional 4x4 I believe that they do still fall into the 4x4 category. even due to the lack of needing locking hubs as they do run 4wd constant, because of the transfer case, gear reduction ratios in low range and the selectable Hi and Low range. If I am wrong I will eat my hat (not really they don't taste all that good) It may be as simple as one side calling apples, apples and the other calling apples, steak. But I do love to learn and its interesting to know that we are seriously lacking in what gets put into our domestic market here.

I really am counting down the days until ford goes to the world wide vehicle line up, I heard rumours that they will be making the F series in RHD again, thus making them more affordable, and bringing the explorer and hopefully the expedition back. amongst all the other little cars of course. I also believe that america will get the complete Falcon line up including turbo 6 and v8 sedan.

what I just stated is obviously all rumour based on what all the ford guys were saying at the car shows, but even if its not true it still helps me sleep at night hoping one day it will happen hahahahhahahaha

 

[gtochris]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

well actually I can't believe how much towing I do, Im sure it will cut down over winter but during the summer months It seems quite a bit. I'm constantly towing the boat about once or twice a month to see family, the trips range from 400km to 2700km, thats one of the reasons why I did look at late model diesels. But yeah mine does it ok.

How about that new Holden Colorado? I see that comes in Austraila with a Diesel and generous tow rating! I could only wish the U.S. had smaller more efficient tow vehicles.

 

[loose rivet]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

Yep I would agree with you, There is some confusion as to what has what, what it really is and what markets came out with what.

The ford explorer's that were released here in Australia in all variants were all 4wd, not awd. The explorer's here do run a hi and Low range 4wd, although they are constant 4wd, they do have low range gearing and off weight distribution between wheels. although a different set up to a patrol or landcruiser they do indeed still classify as a 4wd. To be honest with you I was not even aware that ford released these in a two wheel drive at all? it doesn't make much sense to me. I believe that the reason why ford only released the 4wd versions here in V6 and in V8 is because there is no way a two wheel drive explorer would have sold in our market.

Back in 1999 I owned both a 4.0L V6 and a 5.0L V8 Explorer, the 4.0L was a few years old, the 5.0L V8 model was by far my favorite to drive but then again, gasoline was cheaper then.
The biggest advantage I found between the two is that the V8 model came with a far stronger transmission when it came to towing, the 4R70W transmission is basically the same trans used in the F series. The 5R55 or variants there of, are based off the earlier A4LD which is a light duty automatic trans at best. The 4R70W is a well proven design and personally I've gotten as many as 230,000 miles from one.
Fuel usage wise, the two trucks were close, the 4.0L V6 was never what I considered fuel efficient, and the few times I did check my mileage, it was never more than a mile per gallon off, in either direction. Sometimes the V6 did better, some times the V8 did better. I think the V8 did better when towing. Towing even a very light trailer would make a huge difference in mileage on the V6 truck.
I would expect similar results from the newer model Explorer which in the USA used the newer 4.6L OHC V8, which is far more efficient on gas then was the 5.0L push rod style motor.

 

[ricohman]

Re: V6 or V8 for towing, difference?

My V10 F350 gets better economy than the V8 version of the same truck when towing. It simply doesn't have to work as hard.
The only time the V8 gets better than the V10 is idling in stop and go traffic. Out on the road, the V10 is consistently better.