Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

[dr_bowtie]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

google Plasti-gauge and if you think you can use that then you can check your own bearing clearances...

if the machine shop is good and they get everything in shape clearances shouldnt be an issue but it is something that should always be set...

the most important clearance to set it the thrust surface of the main bearings...to tight and it will eat itself in no time...

 

[gadget73]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

They are. From the "book", page A3-10 & 11 "valve clearance is not adjustable. If clearance is not correct it will be necessary to change the pushrod length so proper clearance can be achieved." The manual tells you how to measure it.

Indeed. Ford has been doing this since the 70s when they went away from stud rockers in favor of pedestal designs. Most of their motors by the mid 70s were pedestal setups.

If you think of it, could you get me the casting number off the head? Its probably something like D3VE or E6TE. I'm not up on my big block stuff, but usually the casting numbers are found on the bottom of the head along the intake runner. I'm just curious what exactly they were using, if it was a standard production pickup truck head, or if it was cast specifically as a marine head. Ford has different engineering numbers based on the division they were made for.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

and still no one seems to get WHY mercruiser spent so much time and money with research and development only to scrap the MCM470 project in less than 5 years.
open deck aluminium blocks with cast iron heads was simply NOT a good idea.
may have looked good on paper but it simply did not work well.
lets list a few of the draw backs of the 3.7.
open deck AL block with cast iron head.
no head to block locating dowls so when replacing a head extreme care MUST be taken to alighn the block to head.
funny charging system that utilized a crank mounter rotor that the magnets like to pop loose.
a water cooled voltage regulator that tended to burn up and the last one I replaced in the 90s was over 300 dollars for the kit.
if yours still has the cast exaust manifold and riser failer is a problem and mercs solutions was an al manifold kit.
if you still have the 3" heat exchanger you will most likly crack manifolds and warp cyliders(back to open deck AL block). IF you deck the head or block then the machinist best be intimatly familiar with the 470 head as the valve lash is set by selective push rod lengths and if the machinist isnt familiar with how its done you will never set the lash correctly.
but there is a reason merc finally gave up on the 3.7.
desighn simply did not work even with all the updates,oil coolers and 4" heat exchangers.
for the money I would find a good 3.0 with the correct Y pipe or the older 250 CID 6 or better the 4.3.
outdrive gear ratio,while it wont be perfect,can be propped around and give decent performance.most the 3.7 ratios were in the 1.6-1 ratio.most 3.0 in the 1.98 and most v6 and v8 between 1.5-1 and 1.7-1.
but its your money, best wishes and good luck but an investment in the correct mercruiser manual and give a copy to your machinist and read all the steps before any maching will be to your advantage.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

and still no one seems to get WHY mercruiser spent so much time and money with research and development only to scrap the MCM470 project in less than 5 years.

Ayuh,... Rodbolt,.. You're 2 pages Too Late,....
I tried explaining the Mistake of doing a 470, back at the Begining... but Nobody wants to hear it....

I guess some folks would rather throw Good money after Bad.....
Rather than Admit their Mistake....

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Bondo
I know the feeling.
last summer I had an old wellcraft show up with a pair of 470,s.
both had water in #4 and the man was unhappy that I refused to work on his 23 year old package.
my reccomendation to him was donate it to the blind foundation and apply the tax credit towards a better rig.
he took it to a local backyardigan (just down the road from my house) 4 months and 3000 dollars later the boat is for sale as a parts rig.
never did it see the water again.
thats the draw back to living and working this outer banks area for over 20 years plus I grew up here as did my family since the mid 1600,s.
last I saw the hull a few months ago its in grandy NC beside the road still for sale with no drives.
sometimes,especially here in the salt pond, its better to refuse a job than to take it and make no one happy.
I do try to take care of my customers, if their 2000 dollar boat needs 4000 dollars of repair its a no brainer. when I am done they now have a 6000 dollar boat worth 1900.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Indeed. Ford has been doing this since the 70s when they went away from stud rockers in favor of pedestal designs. Most of their motors by the mid 70s were pedestal setups.

If you think of it, could you get me the casting number off the head? Its probably something like D3VE or E6TE. I'm not up on my big block stuff, but usually the casting numbers are found on the bottom of the head along the intake runner. I'm just curious what exactly they were using, if it was a standard production pickup truck head, or if it was cast specifically as a marine head. Ford has different engineering numbers based on the division they were made for.

E6TE-DA on mine.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Ayuh,... Rodbolt,.. You're 2 pages Too Late,....
I tried explaining the Mistake of doing a 470, back at the Begining... but Nobody wants to hear it....

I guess some folks would rather throw Good money after Bad.....
Rather than Admit their Mistake....

Okay, fine. I made a mistake buying this boat. But what you suggest, spending $1500-$2000 on a old boat that has a 4.3L, spending many hours switching out everything, then probably having to rebuild the old 4.3L anyway, is a dumb decision when the alternative is a $600 complete rebuild on a 470. This motor that you hate so much LASTED 22 YEARS! And, as I have stated several times before, I DON'T HAVE ANOTHER $3000 TO PUT INTO THIS BOAT!

GEEZ!

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

you may be able to patch it for 600 but not a rebuild.
a rebuild means new or all moving parts reconditioned to new.
merc expressly advises 4 stroke MCM and MIE engines have all the cylinders at the same bore size.
not knocking the old 470, a few actually went a long time. most did not which is why merc abandoned the project.
couple that with to many untrained or know it all techs and it was a maint nightmare.
sometime back I was working for a supposed Mercruiser Master tech.
I was replacing the input shaft seal and yoke on a bravo III.
had the rear cover and shift shaft removed.
supposed master tech came by raising caine about why did I remove that.
I replied to line up the timing marks on the upper and lower gear.
he replied what timing marks.
supposed master tech now,.
never saw a cast iron block 470 style motor as the original design was for aluminium block,open deck and an iron head.
maybe folks need to google open deck design and read about the advantages and disadvantages of open deck block assys.
myself, I would use the OEM gaskets as I am fully aware of the head gasket sealing issues back when they were new.
a draw back of working this industry for closing in on 30 years.
about the time I think I know what I am doing I dont wanna do it no more.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Even though there are strong opinions to the contrary, I think the rebuild (repair) is the way to go. I would rebuild mine. With proper maintenance that engine will go a long time, and I have a feeling it will be well taken care of.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

you may be able to patch it for 600 but not a rebuild.
a rebuild means new or all moving parts reconditioned to new.

I thought a reman was reconditioning to new specs, and that rebuild was reconditioning to service specs.

merc expressly advises 4 stroke MCM and MIE engines have all the cylinders at the same bore size.

They all will be bored to .020 OS. Thought we cleared up the confusion. New pistons, new crankshaft bearings and rod bearings, serviceable crank and cam shaft, new lifters, valve job....not a bad patch for $600.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I'll be interested to see how you come out. Whatever happens, do keep posting here about your progress.

Erik

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Even though there are strong opinions to the contrary, I think the rebuild (repair) is the way to go. I would rebuild mine. With proper maintenance that engine will go a long time, and I have a feeling it will be well taken care of.

Yes, and I acknowledge the fact that I'm a completely moron/crap for brains/douchebag for not spending the extra $4000 on the 4.3L conversion/rebuild. After I self-flagellate tomorrow, I shall enlist the aid of the Pensacola Ice Pilots to help me pull my head out of my buttox....I doubt it will become dislodged, however.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Just FYI, most of the folks here with a distaste for 470s have it for a good reason, and most of them are just trying to stop you from doing something you'll regret.

I think many of them have the idea now that you're going ahead with your eyes open, but some of them will hang on for a while.

Just try to remember if they really didn't care whether you had problems or not they'd just keep their mouths shut... any info they give you isn't to make themselves feel better, it's to try to keep you from making what they consider a mistake.

If things work out well for you, that's great. If not, that's ok too, you'll still find help here.

Either way, let us know what happens, it's gonna be interesting.

Erik

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Just FYI, most of the folks here with a distaste for 470s have it for a good reason, and most of them are just trying to stop you from doing something you'll regret.

I think many of them have the idea now that you're going ahead with your eyes open, but some of them will hang on for a while.

Just try to remember if they really didn't care whether you had problems or not they'd just keep their mouths shut... any info they give you isn't to make themselves feel better, it's to try to keep you from making what they consider a mistake.

If things work out well for you, that's great. If not, that's ok too, you'll still find help here.

Either way, let us know what happens, it's gonna be interesting.

Erik

Thanks. I really do appreciate the help I've gotten here, and I will document the rebuild for the benefit of other 470 owners.

 

[sdoomaha]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Nate, you're doing fine....I was in the same boat (horribly bad pun intended).....didn't know what I was buying in the 470 and after a couple years of good service, when #3 piston blew a hole in it, I had a boat not worth a transplant, but couldnt afford a newer boat. I did the same thing and rebuilt the 470...and other than a new head gasket since the rebuild...it's been a very solid motor and I would do it again.

Replace the oil pump while you are in there, check the cam seals, do not try and hammer the harmonic balancer back on the front (AKA read the manual in detail before thinking you know it all) and retorque the head bolts after getting it up to temp and you'll have a nice set up again for several years.

With that said, please note however.....the next boat purchased was not a 470: ) Hopefully it will be a lesson learned and the 4.3 will give me a little more years of more consistent service.

Take care and be comfortable with your decision.....

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Yes, and I acknowledge the fact that I'm a completely moron/crap for brains/douchebag for not spending the extra $4000 on the 4.3L conversion/rebuild. After I self-flagellate tomorrow, I shall enlist the aid of the Pensacola Ice Pilots to help me pull my head out of my buttox....I doubt it will become dislodged, however.

Me too! Pensacola ice pilots????

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Nate, you're doing fine....I was in the same boat (horribly bad pun intended).....didn't know what I was buying in the 470 and after a couple years of good service, when #3 piston blew a hole in it, I had a boat not worth a transplant, but couldnt afford a newer boat. I did the same thing and rebuilt the 470...and other than a new head gasket since the rebuild...it's been a very solid motor and I would do it again.

Replace the oil pump while you are in there, check the cam seals, do not try and hammer the harmonic balancer back on the front (AKA read the manual in detail before thinking you know it all) and retorque the head bolts after getting it up to temp and you'll have a nice set up again for several years.

With that said, please note however.....the next boat purchased was not a 470: ) Hopefully it will be a lesson learned and the 4.3 will give me a little more years of more consistent service.

Take care and be comfortable with your decision.....

Thanks.

Hey, let me pick your brain some. Was it an aftermarket gasket that blew, or an OEM? I'll probably go ahead and get the OEM since everyone says to use that, but no one knows who makes the OEM gasket (Victor? Fel-Pro? Other?)

Did you buy that $70 dollar oil pump alignment tool or can/did you use the distributor shaft to align the pump?

Replace oil pump....may as well, although I'm reading the #8 manual right now on the oil pump-cleaning and inspecting.

 

[natemoore]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Me too! Pensacola ice pilots????

Pensacola Ice Pilots: the Cradle of Naval Aviation's defunct hockey team.

 

[IVAZ]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

I'll play a little devil advocate, too. The 470 is the highest power to weight marine engine built. I'd say get it done. heck, you only have 4 cylinders to fool with. I think there have been some alt conversions done. You should be able to figure it out.

I've been doing my own work since the same age and never been to a repair shop...for 50 years.

That statement is wrong. Its only about as powerfull as a 3.0 engine. For the rather large displacement it has, I would say it has a pretty low HP to displacement ratio.
These guys will even buy your 470.
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/mercury_mercruiser_3-7.htm
Sounds like the op is going for it anyway. Good luck.

 

[stonyloam]

Re: Visiting the machine shop tomorrow

Thanks.

no one knows who makes the OEM gasket (Victor? Fel-Pro? Other?)

Can't remember with mine. Guess you could go to the local Merc dealer and ask to look at one. I do know that the book was wrong, "front" goes up, not down, on mine anyway.