VP special tools and part costs?

[harringtondav]

Another forum, same topic: Specing in my new boat. I've held fast any new boat would have the Merc 4.5, mainly because I am fully tooled and skilled for the Alpha II, and am not afraid of aftermarket parts.

But I also want full fresh water, closed cooling. And that's starting to look iffy from the brands I'm considering. All offer VP sterndrives which are apparently closed cooling standard.

Is this true?

VPs tend to cost slightly less than the Merc, and I'm sure Merc factory CC would be a significant price increase.

The next question regards the cost of the VP sterndrive service tools, and the availability of aftermarket parts - generally unis, bearings, transom seal kits O/D and seal kits. ...if like Merc, VPs bearings are standard from Motion Industries, etc.

Any input will be appreciated.

 

[Scott Danforth]

both Merc and VP buy their heat exchangers from the same place. both heat exchangers cost within 5% of each other.

as to whether all VP offering closed cooling as standard, not sure.

I know that VP understood deariation and draw down better than Mercruiser did. Hence MOAS (which literally stands for "Mother Of All Separators" per the prior VP chief engineer)

most likely the VP bearings are still SKF (or possibly some other Euro bearing manufacturer today)

your current alignment tool is the same

the alignment process is the same

VP does recommend changing the bellows more often

 

[QBhoy]

As far as I know. It’s not true that all VP are fresh water cooled standard. The diesels all are, but some or most petrols remain raw. Just that all VP have their raw water impeller driven off the engine and not in the drive.

 

[harringtondav]

Thanks Scott Danforth and QBhoy

...any chance props are interchangeable? Our river house basement looks like a prop shop, 21, 22, 23" Merc props, alum and SS, three and four blade. One will go to the new owner of our Larsen. ...eBay for the rest if they aren't interchangeable.

BTW, I did browse VP's site. Their 4.3 is CC. ...don't know if that includes the exhaust manifolds. My goal is to simplify winterizaton.

Also S.D., I think you gave me a link to the VP 4.3 earlier. Thanks. GM industrial engine. Direct injection. VVT. Looks nice.

 

[Scott Danforth]

doubt the props are interchangeable

 

[QBhoy]

Some props are interchangeable by using a different hub kit. As in, a mercury prop can be fitted to a VP sx by changing the hub kit.

 

[Lou C]

With these new I/Os the cost of the cat converter exhaust and some of the other add ons will stop me from buying one. I'd keep your present boat unless you are getting rot or are concerned about that. You could always repower it and add a full closed system (being that Merc did offer this) and that with a remote oil filter kit your maintenance chores are easier, and you can keep using your Alpha tools and knowledge.
So I'm either going to repower this boat in a few years and do what I just said (if it stays in good shape, no rot worries) or if not, get an new or nearly new outboard boat. Think of how much money you'd save, with a new long block+closed cooling+remote oil filter kit! I really thought seriously about a new OB boat, but for what it will cost me with our short season its hard to justify and both vehicles I use now (98 Jeep and 07 Jeep) are getting OLD. So there's that too.

 

[harringtondav]

Thanks Lou C . Current boat is great, solid. An upgrade would be a splurge. ..still justifying 3footitus. Looking for a softer ride w/more passengers. I'm mulling over much of what you suggest. New O/B's in my size/power wants are very pricey compared to their I/O counterpart. ...newer used O/B boats in my size will take some more research. I haven't seen any in a reasonable buy radius.

 

[Lou C]

You're in fresh water so the concern with cat converter exhaust is not such a big deal for you as it is here, since here you have to replace it every 5--8 years at most....so if I bought new, fine for that time frame, then, to replace Merc cat converter exhaust on the V6, I know is 4500 because an acquaintance who has one of them just told me this is what they heard from their mechanic, I'm used to spending about 750 parts cost for that job, no way I am going to buy one with that cost penalty, the Outboard makes much more sense then. Only other thing we can do here if we want an IO is to buy no newer than an '08 before the cats came on line, and that's already 12 years old. If I get another boat is gotta be nearly new or new, that's too old been there done that!

If I'm reading it right, you have a 17.5' boat, correct? I can see why you'd want something bigger, keep in mind that outboard boats if set up right always have more room than the same size I/O due to no motor box in the way. Here for my use 20' is the minimum size, really the perfect size since its just big enough, not to big to tow, can store at home, etc. I looked at a 20' Key West Dual Console boat, like a bowrider but fishing/salt friendly, with a Yamaha 150 it was about 48K sticker, you can talk em down, that would be a great boat for our conditions, easy to winterize, safe in LI Sound etc. But I like my old Chevrolet, what can I say, I'll probably just keep fixing this one lol!

 

[harringtondav]

Lou C Current boat is 16'9" LOA, 2300# dry. Plenty of power. Rated for eight passengers, but it would take a shoe horn to get that many on board. Great ride in glass or mild chop, but any rougher and your kidneys will bleed. I sprung for a pair of EZ Ride cushioned pedestals which helps me and the copilot. Passengers huddle on the rear bench. I can't pay them to get up in the bow seats. The boat is stern heavy with my wife and I, worse with passengers. She and I have had squabbles when I insist two passengers get up front to tame the ride. So she is going along with the upgrade.

Likely new boat Regal 1900ES. 19'9", 3100# Rated for nine passengers, meaning seven or eight will fit and still be able to move around. VP V6 240 gen V SX. And no CAT!! Same weight/HP as current, so it should scoot along just fine.

..brings me back to my original question: VP special tools. O/D pulls and bellows replacements don't worry me. Same with Unis and gimbal bearing. But if like Merc Alpha II, a full seal job = full disassembly. Sierra versions of the Merc tools are available. Don't know about VP tools. [h=5][/h]

 

[Lou C]

Maybe muc can answer that, of all the people on the board here...
As far as boat size, your deadrise also determines ride quality. My '88 H-200 is 20'9" and has a 21* deadrise at the stern and sharp bow entry and as such it rides excellent for a boat its size. One of the reasons why I kept it. Only thing I don't like is open bow and non self bailing. However, even fishing style boats in this size range that are self bailing have small drains, hard to see how they would do if swamped. The Key West line of boats is full foam filled all the way up the gunnels, that to me is a significant safety feature, that I am willing to pay extra for. When I am out in Long Island Sound I keep the bow cover on all the time and made a reinforced support that will keep it from caving in.....

 

[harringtondav]

muc Summary of my post: I'm considering a new boat with VP V6 240 G5 SX. Lot's of pluses over the Merc 4.5. Only downside for me is walking away from a full set of Alpha II special tools and 24 yrs experience using them.

I'm not worried about O/D pulls, bellows change outs, etc., but I know I've eventually have to tear into it for seal kits, and if history repeats, prop shaft replacement. Are the special tools required extensive, and expensive?

Last year I tore down my neighbor's Cobra for seals and a new FWD gear set. I cobbled a compator fixture to get the shim pack correct. I see setting cone point, backlash etc. is much different than with the Alpha. ...only necessary for a catastrophic event, but maybe a costly set up (?)

Ps: Does the VP's freshwater cooling include the exhaust manifolds, or are they seawater cooled? Thanks.

 

[muc]

I can't help with the special tools because Iv'e always had them. No idea if any are available aftermarket. Over the years I have rebuilt 100's of drives. Volvo, MerCruiser and OMC. Had ALL the tools for them. Cobra's are easiest, then Volvo's, then Bravo's, then Alpha's, stringers were the worst. If you're OK doing Alpha's, my guess is you will be fine with the SX once you get the tools ---- and I refuse to work on Volvo's without the special tools ---- don't care what they cost. It will be worth it.

As far as part prices. Can't comment on aftermarket stuff because I don't use or recommend them. I will tell you that on some parts that both MerCruiser and Volvo use that are interchangeable. Volvo will be cheaper more often than MerCruiser will.

MerCruiser vs Volvo performance. I don't have much experience with small V-6 powered boats. Most of what I did/do is twin engine boats. But from what I've found is that if you get a chance to test drive the same 2 boats. One with MerCruiser 4.5 250 hp and one with Volvo 4.3 240 hp. You will more than happy to give away your MerCruiser tools. The Volvo just feels much more powerful. And fuel usage -- especially at idle --- is amazing.

Now I will give you a warning, and this is based on personal experience!
A few years ago the dealer I worked for did a sale very close to what your looking at. Glastron 17' with 4.3 Volvo to a 18' (won't mention the brand, but it was comparable to the Regal your considering) with a 4.3 MerCruiser cat engine. Customer was back 2 weeks later (after their vacation) and not happy. Wanted their money and old boat back. We had already sold their trade-in, so as the most experienced tech. I was given the job to get them happy with the new boat. So after talking to the customer I found the first problem, salesman never mentioned that new boat was 1000 lbs heavier (and if you weigh both your Larson and the new Regal, I'm guessing you will find the Regal weighs at least 1000 lbs more) due to the big jump in quality and full fiberglass liner. Second problem, new boat was a little on the slow side. Please note that this is very common with boats, 2-5 MPH difference between the same two boats is common. This is why it's always best to take these published boat tests with a grain of salt ---- you can be sure the boat manufacturer tested many different hulls before they gave the one to the magazine test people. So after making sure there wasn't anything wrong with the engine, drive or hull and knowing I would only get one chance to make him happy. I installed an expensive prop (mercury high 5) a set of smart tabs and removed the spacers in the trim rams to give the drive a bit more tuck under.
Got the customer back to the Marina and explained that while his new boat was much heavier (think 4 extra adults in the boat) it would never have the top speed his old one did. But it would handle waves better and have a much smoother ride. Told him that we had done over $1000 in upgrades to get the hole shot back and that his trade had been sold 4 days after we got it. So the best we could do was give him his money back. Asked if he would please let us launch the boat and he and his family would spend sometime using the boat as they normally did. After 2 hours he came back and said he would keep the boat. But I could tell that if we would have still had his old boat, he would have asked for it back,
That's a long story, but I'm trying to make sure you realize this isn't a apples to apples switch your making. The Regal your looking at won't lose much top speed because the hull is so much better then the Larson. But your hole shot will be much slower.

I'm full of advise today.
The catalyst upgrade is $1500 on this engine. Based on what Iv'e seen so far I think it's worth it.
The duo-prop upgrade is $900 on this. While I don't usually recommend (because it doesn't have as much of an effect on small boats) duo-prop on anything under 26'.That would get some hole shot back.
The 280 hp upgrade is $900 on this engine. Maybe something to think about?
Note that these $$$$ are base numbers when ordering a boat. What your dealer wants to charge can be very different due to how they order boats.

If you do decide to get a new boat ---- factor in the price of Rinda Diacom to the price ---- For a boat owner, Diacom has way more value then a handheld like techmate.

 

[harringtondav]

Thanks muc I mean, thanks a lot. I'm PDF printing your reply and archiving it. A question: "The catalyst upgrade is $1500 on this engine. Based on what Iv'e seen so far I think it's worth it." Why so? I was happy to see the VP 240 was non CAT on the Regal, based on postings about CAT problems and replacement costs. ...doesn't matter, Regal's only offering is the non CAT. ..what will I be missing?

I was prepared for the $ upgrade from 4.5 Merc 200 hp to 250 hp (not available w/my Regal model), plus an upgrade to closed cooling (likely a dealer install...not relevant now). The VP upgrade was much less. So my budget has some room for special tools, and probably the Diacom (assuming this is the CAN buss analyzer). ...being self sufficient with problem diagnostics is in my DYI DNA.

Thanks again.

 

[muc]

Noticed that I missed your questions on closed cooling. ALL current gas Volvo Penta engines are closed cooled, but NONE are a full system. MerCruiser closed cooling is an option for a 1/2 system, but they also don't offer a full system. I haven't been able to get a good answer from either of them on why.

First let me say that Iv'e never worked on a marine engine that has only one O2 sensor per bank instead of 2 and no catalyst. So my knowledge of this engine is limited to the classroom with no real world experience. And to be honest, I really didn't pay close attention because I was pretty sure that they were something I wouldn't have to deal with. This configuration is only available on the 4.3 Volvo due to "green" credits and I'm surprised they are still available in 2020. I would be grateful if someone with more knowledge would correct me on any advise I post here.

I have become a fan of the cat engines for a number of reasons. A lot of my feelings are due to the fact that I see more of the "bad" side of boating then most people. Much of this is stuff that most people don't ever have to think about until it happens to them or someone they love. I also see large unnecessary repair bills due to lack of operator knowledge.
1. They have cleaner exhaust. The chances of co poisoning are greatly reduced. If you ever have to be involved in a CO death investigation, it might change how you look at catalyst engines. I know it did for me. This is more of a problem with bigger boats, but with all the canvas options that are available. It can be a issue in smaller boats too. When doing CO testing I was amazed at how many variables are involved. The average person has no idea how easy it is to get the "perfect storm" of events to create this issue. Read your owners manual and PLEASE pay attention to the section on safe boating.
2. A cat engine can do a much more precise job of writing to the long and short term adaptive memory fuel control tables. It also can do a better job of monitoring misfires. This allows the engine to run better and alert the operator to problems sooner. This can result catching a problem while it's still a cheap repair vs an expensive one.
There are some other reasons, but those are the big two.

There have been some issues with the cat engines. BUT. Much of this was due to amount of time and money the manufacturers had before it needed to come to market.and the lack of trained techs that understood the system. But much like the automotive world (remember the cat cars in the late 70's?) much of the problems have been resolved. Once the techs get caught up with training, I think all the problems will be gone.

Interesting bit of knowledge that most people don't seem to know. The misfire management system is kind of touchy and needs some time to learn the engine. Due to manufacturing tolerances the ECM needs to learn the engine it's monitoring. One of the draw backs to this is that any added vibration will confuse the system. So anytime u-joints or the prop gets (or anything that can cause changes is the speed of crankshaft rotation) damaged this can throw the system off. This is why its so important to clear the misfire counters after a repair or replacement of a damaged prop A bad prop won't cause a misfire, but it can cause the engine to think it's misfiring.

 

[muc]

Also, have you sat in the 2000 ES? Suggest you and your bride sit in one if your dealer has any.
The extra beam makes the boat "feel" much bigger out on the water.

And the engine you are looking at won't have EVC and I'm pretty sure you can't add EVC to this engine without great expense. So don't be looking at any of those fancy upgrades and thinking "I'll do this later" because the engine has to start with EVC.

 

[harringtondav]

Thanks again muc I'll take whatever closed cooling I can get. ..trying to simplify winterization in today's boats tiny engine bays. I've poked sand from the block drains each fall for 24 yrs. Merc's single point drain doesn't fully winterize, and I suspect I'd be dismantleing it to get the sand out. If VP's CC is block only, not many sand worries. I understand they also have a good single point drain for the rest. ...shouldn't be a big problem.

Also understand the EPA credit thing on the VP non-CAT. I retired from Deere 10 yrs ago. They burnt diesel tier 3 & 4 credits like money in the bank to delay the cost of upgrading their small 3 and 4L diesels to the latest standards.

As far as EVC, I don't see this an issue on a 19' BR.I prefer manual trannys in a vehicle. I wouldn't pay for auto trim or anything else. Hands on boat operation is part of the fun for me. ...keeps my dwindling testosterone levels up.

 

[Lou C]

Interesting, I did not know there was some choice with whether you have to get a cat converter exhaust or not....
also muc I was interested to see that you felt the Cobra was the easiest of all to rebuild, too bad I probably can't find the original OMC tools, if I could, I'd have no trouble continuing to run one, as long as I can get the parts I need. As it is I taught myself how to do the transom shift cable adjustment because very few people around here will still work on Cobras. The last time I had it to a mechanic to replace some seals was in 2006, and those guys retired 2 years ago! In general it has held up very well given perhaps the harshest conditions for an outdrive....100% salt water use, moored in salt water 6 months out of the year....

 

[harringtondav]

.
also muc I was interested to see that you felt the Cobra was the easiest of all to rebuild,

The Cobra wasn't too bad compared to the Alpha. I had to rig a fixture to set new FWD gear set shims. ..a comparitor that was zeroed on the original. I (my neighbor) bought the pinion shaft splined tool. My merc nut tool worked fine on the pinion nut. ...still have the shaft tool. Maybe the same for the VP SX. ...probably not. I also fabed a 'chicken lips' height setting tool off Boatinfo's manual. Close, but I had to tweak the lower shift cable barrel nut to get the boat to shift OK.

Getting the threaded retaining ring off the input shaft was a battle. I didn't have the spanner, so a pipe wrench, big dead blow and a lot of sweat got it off.

The Cobra pluses were no special retainer wrenches/tools. All cap screwed pull of retainers. No 70 -140 ft/lb torques. Seal drivers don't worry me much on the SX. Merc has some critical seal driving depths, but a digital caliper and deft hand can handle these.

Gear and/or associated bearing replacements worry me the most on the VP. Merc's shimming tools are fast and straightforward. Assuming all bearings are equal in height is trouble. Their height tolerance exceeds cone pt,backlash, and rolling drag tolerances. ...So if I get into a catastrophe I'll have to get the tools, so some serious improvisation, or pass it off to insurance and the dealer's shop.

Problem with that plan is I've heard too many dealer techs say "heck, those housings an bearings are made identical". No shim checks, just throw the parts back into the box. I know bearing specs, and once engineered mfg of similar gear boxes. ...not identical. That's why I'm a paranoid DIY.