Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover?

[honda460ex]

I have the gasket, but thanks to reading here have found out that the bolts are epoxied and need to be heated to remove and then some form of epoxy to reinstall... My symptoms are as follows. Motor acted up, lost rpms, and then once off plane wouldn't come back up on plane. NO POWER! Symptons got worse and worse until it would barely idle in the water. So I took it to a certified outboard mechanic (friend) and he looked at it. Thought I had a weak coil causing it to drop a cylinder. In the end I replaced pretty much every electrical component on the motor. Previous owner had a stator with one low rpm winding dead so he or someone else wired a jumper from power pack one to power pack two to make it run. So the motor was only running on half of the stator and the rectifier wiring was destroyed. Replaced trigger with the stator, new coils, wires, and one switchbox (I know, should replace both at once, but i didn't). Compression is good by the way. Have one cylinder down to 105 lbs, the rest are 125 lbs. Story on that, found piston #2 is missing its top compression ring. Thank God for two more rings! lol. When I set the timing step by step, on muffs it would fire and run at or above 1,200 rpms. As soon as you would try to bring it to an idle in would die like you turned the key off. Off muffs and out of the water it would fire and idle. I know not good for it, I didn't idle it longer than 5-6 seconds and I am replacing the impeller and housing with everything else right now too. Pulled the plugs and found water condensation on the bottom ones. Took the exhaust cover and such off and found a lot of milk... Pistons 5 and 6 look brand new. 4 is fairly clean. 3 has a decent amount of carbon. 1 and 2 have massive carbon build up. So I know I have a major water issue. I am pulling the powerhead and replacing the lower seals and I also have all gaskets for the top end that I am replacing. I want to fix it right the first time. So hence my initial question, with the water problem I am having, should I try to replace the inner water jacket cover gasket while I have everything else apart? Or do you think it is probably just the lower seals gone bad and I shouldn't fool with it?

Sorry so long...

 

[Charlie61]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

you done all most every thing why stop now, it's the only way you are going to satisfied in yourself

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Compression is good by the way. Have one cylinder down to 105 lbs,

Uhhh....thats not good.

Story on that, found piston #2 is missing its top compression ring. Thank God for two more rings!

That cylinder is going to have some damage from the ring coming off.....

I am pulling the powerhead and replacing the lower seals and I also have all gaskets for the top end that I am replacing. I want to fix it right the first time.

If you going to "fix it right the first time" address the cylinder issue also ,if not all will be for naught..

 

[honda460ex]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

I know it's not good, and I know there is going to be some damage from it, but the ring is no where to be found... I can find no shrapnel from it. What I can see in that cylinder doesn't look to bad considering. I just figured it was going to be to much $$ to finish tearing it apart. I figured once in there the bearings and all would probably need replacing, then having all the cylinders bored and honed, new pistons and rings, the cost of that when the motor runs pretty good otherwise I can't seem to justify in my mind. I've owned the motor for almost two years and it has ran really good up until this water problem. No miss, fairly smooth idle, and runs out to 6,000 rpms normally with no problem. I have worked on atv's and dirtbikes for nearly 15 years but this is my first outboard so I am kind of new to it. The one thing I have realized though is the boating world is just as much of a money racket as the offroad industry when it comes to parts and repairs. Is there a cheap place to actually still find parts for this motor? Such as the pistons, rings, and bearings? If there is, I am all for going ahead with a complete rebuild. Like I said, I am a rookie here and the whole finding parts at a relatively inexpensive price just hasn't happened for me yet. I am up for all the help you can give me there, internet links, names, anything...

By the way, I went ahead and pulled the powerhead today... Lower crankshaft seals were in fact bad. The lower of the two was completely shot. The rubber seal had completely broken away from the outer metal ring. The second seal didn't look horrible bad, but it didn't look good... I figure that was my main issue after all. Will post back later with results on the matter. Like I said though, if you do know of any parts places at reasonable prices that I could get a rebuild kit or something I am open for it.

Thanks all.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Lower crank seals will cause water intrusion into cylinders 5+6. So the inner water jacket cover is probably OK. The missing piston ring is obviously a problem.

 

[honda460ex]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Another question though guys, at what price is fixing that one ring really worth if the motor runs good even without it? Yes it's lower compression than the other five, but still more than enough that if all others were as low as it it would run fine. I've seen plenty of atv and dirtbike motors lose a ring or chunk something in the transmission. When something does come apart, depending on what metal it is it will either get chewed to pieces or shatter something else. The stronger of the two metals wins. I know shrapnel isn't good on bearings, but I am pretty sure that is what is left of that ring, shrapnel. I have plenty of experience rebuilding atv and dirtbike motors, the price is never cheap, and I understand what you all are saying too and I agree it's not good. So please don't think that I'm trying to be smart at all, but only trying to seriously raise the question, at what expense is that ring really worth when the motor runs good without it? Everything I have looked for is looking like $800 or more just for parts. And that's if I don't need a new crank. With shrapnel present in that motor also the bearings would all have to be replaced even if they look good, that's my take on that stuff. With it being 30 years old and shrapnel somewhere in there I am sure it's going to be scored. The recommendation from my friend who is a retired machinest for GE Aircraft engines and certified mechanic and another friend who is also an auto mechanic was to run it. They both seem to think the damage is done and I might as well use it until it goes and a complete rebuild is needed. They both agreed that they have seen motors run for years with similar issues and you just never know how long it will last, 1 month or 5 years. I am up for some validate reason for disagreement on the other side of this too.

Thanks guys.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

I am old school....fix it right once. Usually if you run it till it breaks it costs more to fix. You wont need crank or bearing as ring went out exhaust port and most you will need is boring and pistons.

 

[honda460ex]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Thanks Faztbullet, I understand and do agree with you. It does seem to cost more in that case in my experiences. Any good pointers on where to go or look for new pistons and rings?

 

[emoney]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

I fully "get" your logic, however boating is meant to be fun; something we relax whilst doing. Nothing spoils a day/weekend/month more than breaking down on the water because if your luck is anywhere near mine, it'll happen at the worst possible moment. Not to mention a minor safety concern if it goes while you're outrunning a thundestorm. If you've not done so, price OBs in that HP range. What you'll pay in parts is about what you'd pay if you bought another one that ALSO needed something. And with yours rebuilt, you'll know what you have which in of itself is worth a lot.

Whatever you decide make sense on some level and it IS your $$ and time. Make the decision based on future "regret", I say.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Here on iBoats is a good start and aftermarket replacement pistons come with rings....

 

[honda460ex]

Re: Water intrusion in '83 115 inline 6, pull or not to pull inner water jacket cover

Well, I pulled the inner water jacket cover last night and I am glad I did. The bolts, all except for two, were not tight at all. Got it off to find the base of the gasket missing. So, obviously it was leaking too. In checking prices on pistons I think I am going to put it back together for now and maybe tear it down mid-winter. The work of doing it doesn't bother me, I actually enjoy it. But I also enjoy bass fishing immensely and haven't got to do a lot this year. Want to hit a couple of tournaments before the season is up. The cheapest pistons I found were just under $50 a piece, not bad, but they were .030 over and i don't want to do that on a first bore. So I will keep looking. Cheapest .015 over bore I have found were around $80-90 a piece. May just have to go with those. We will see... Thanks for the help all.