Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

[Natesms]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

How big are these lakes with 10 mph speed limits? 10 on LOTO would be tough there is a lot of water to cover and nightlife is a big thing there.

 

[QC]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Yeah, LOTO sounds a lot like Havasu, Mead and Powell. I understand the concerns, and I am not advocating any unsafe boating practices, but 30 MPH at night is very common here. Heck the Ferry here runs over 20, and she runs until 2:30 AM. I don't agree with much of the "never" comments on this board. Fishing charters run above 10 MPH all the time. They don't have some magic radar that sees floating obstacles. Yes I know about FLIR, but this is not some brand new practice either. I post a look out. Use a spot only for buoys and landmark recognition. And I am VERY careful. If you hit a submerged obstacle any time of the day it sucks.

Again, not advocating unsafe boating practices, but this is not uncommon stuff. When I went to the US Marine boat testing deal back in '07 we ran 4 Cruisers back from the University of Tennessee football game at midnight. About 20 miles at 30 MPH on the Tennessee River. We were not out of control drunks. We were a group of seasoned boaters that were guests of US Marine. And there were plenty of others making the same trip. The whole flippin' Vol Navy. If we are out of control drunk SOBs, then I want out. I just don't think we were/are.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

...back from the University of Tennessee football game at midnight...The whole flippin' Vol Navy. If we are out of control drunk SOBs...

Vols fans, after a game, after midnight ... and you wanna' know if you're outta' control? Dude, the big orange STARTS outta' control!

 

[Mischief Managed]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

I watch the lights seemingly adjust to become a collision course. I hold true as I'm on the left side of the lake closer to the shore and was on a perfect straight shot. The lights then continued to turn towards me and I became concerned and adjusted the best I could, I was now in a situation where I was going to have to "pass" this boat even though we never should have been close enough to be an issue with the huge amount of lake available. In the end the boat came up on me so close I had to steer very hard left and adjust speed to avoid what I felt could be a potential collision as this boat approached.

In the end the water patrol boat passes off my starboard side. He was close enough I could easily see the symbol on the side of the boat and see the single driver. The water patrol boat then goes off back towards the other side of the lake and that was it (changed course back towards their original destination).

Sounds like a jerk was operating the other boat and clearly had no clue about being the stand-on vessel. If the water patrol officer intended to create a dangerous situation, he should have had emergency lights on and/or hailed you via VHF or loud hailer.

As soon as it was clear that you were on a collision course, you should have turned right to pass well behind the other boat. If you have to turn hard left to barely avoid a boat on your starboard side, you are doing it wrong. In a crossing collision course situation, the easiest way to ensure that you (as the give-way operator) will pass behind the stand-on boat is to alter course very early (thousands of feet apart) such that you are aimed directly at the other boat, then hold that heading. If they maintain course and speed as they are supposed to, you will pass well behind them. If they alter course to put you on a collision course again, blow your horn 5 times and keep turning right until you are the stand-on boat, then maintain course and speed, if safe to do so.

 

[The_Kid]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

How big are these lakes with 10 mph speed limits? 10 on LOTO would be tough there is a lot of water to cover and nightlife is a big thing there.

I don't think they have a clue about the size of LOTO. At 10 MPH it would only take around 9 hours to travel the 92 mile length of the Osage branch of the lake. 30 MPH is a safe speed for traveling the main channel at night. I've had a place there since 89 and have done it many times, even before there was a 30 MPH limit.

Like any other time in the boat, you vary your speed according to conditions.

 

[Natesms]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Sounds like a jerk was operating the other boat and clearly had no clue about being the stand-on vessel. If the water patrol officer intended to create a dangerous situation, he should have had emergency lights on and/or hailed you via VHF or loud hailer.

As soon as it was clear that you were on a collision course, you should have turned right to pass well behind the other boat. If you have to turn hard left to barely avoid a boat on your starboard side, you are doing it wrong. In a crossing collision course situation, the easiest way to ensure that you (as the give-way operator) will pass behind the stand-on boat is to alter course very early (thousands of feet apart) such that you are aimed directly at the other boat, then hold that heading. If they maintain course and speed as they are supposed to, you will pass well behind them. If they alter course to put you on a collision course again, blow your horn 5 times and keep turning right until you are the stand-on boat, then maintain course and speed, if safe to do so.

I'm well aware of the stand on vessel rules, I know that you yield to the boat coming in off the right. My point here is that the water patrol continuously changed course for no reason to force me off course and then immediately reversed direction. He was coming almost directly from my starboard side in the end. He deviated so much that had I turned off to the right I would have crossed directly in his path had he been keeping a normal course (not trying to aim at me). Not to mention that had he kept course he would have nailed the shore, there was no place to go.

 

[Natesms]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

I don't think they have a clue about the size of LOTO. At 10 MPH it would only take around 9 hours to travel the 92 mile length of the Osage branch of the lake. 30 MPH is a safe speed for traveling the main channel at night. I've had a place there since 89 and have done it many times, even before there was a 30 MPH limit.

Like any other time in the boat, you vary your speed according to conditions.

I agree. Nothing wrong with 30mph in the channel. I was there in the pre-speed limit days and it was a good addition. I'll take slightly higher speeds to get boats with their bows down. The size of boats there, many of them don't plane out until 25+ My express cruiser you can't see a thing until the bow comes down and doing 10 mph on something that size just isn't realistic.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

I don't think they have a clue about the size of LOTO. At 10 MPH it would only take around 9 hours to travel the 92 mile length of the Osage branch of the lake. 30 MPH is a safe speed for traveling the main channel at night. I've had a place there since 89 and have done it many times, even before there was a 30 MPH limit.

Like any other time in the boat, you vary your speed according to conditions.

LOTO is much like Grand Lake, Lake Texhoma, and Table Rock. These are very sizable lakes with few obstructions when not near shore. Each of the lakes has pretty extensive chart soundings as well if needed. It would take many hours to go from one end to the other at 10mph. Heck, it still takes a couple hours at 30mph on Grand. The lakes also aren't normally wide enough to where you can't see the shoreline except on the darkest nights, and there is plenty of housing on the shorelines to light up most areas for getting your bearings. These lakes don't typically use on-water buoys except in high-traffic areas, so there is little to try and see. Sure, you may get an occasional log or debris floating, but it's relatively uncommon except after a lot of rain.

The boats range from tiny fishing boats, to offshore triple-screw powerboats, to 50' yachts, so weekends are typically left to those with bigger boats as it isn't uncommon for it to be white-capping on the main channel, especially with any decent wind. However, the weekdays are smooth as glass where the 14' tinny can traverse the lake without issue. 30MPH at night is fine for these lakes.

 

[moosehead]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Heavy nightlife + night boating + 30 mph + accepted practice = potentially explosive conditions. Just becauce the lake is big doesn't mean one should make a 90 mile itinerary in the dark. I am not a namby pamby type either, but night boating presents real concerns.

Bad timing perhaps but OT: Water Patrol boat collision - ky3.com

 

[Natesms]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Bad timing perhaps but OT: Water Patrol boat collision - ky3.com

Wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't running lights. I've come up on multiple boats over the years with no lights, or extremely weak lights.

I guess my point here was that WP was practicing some unsafe tactics in my opinion. WP was on plane just like I was, I was at or under the speed limit, however he went out of his way to get close to me for no apparent reason.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't running lights. I've come up on multiple boats over the years with no lights, or extremely weak lights.

I guess my point here was that WP was practicing some unsafe tactics in my opinion. WP was on plane just like I was, I was at or under the speed limit, however he went out of his way to get close to me for no apparent reason.

I agree w/ you. The lake patrol has no reason to "test" someone in the manner in which he did, if that was his intention. If my lights are on and I'm not breaking any rules, then he needs to keep his distance. If he wants to do a "random" safety check, he better have his emergency lights on and make his intentions known instead of opting for a collision course at night. You never know how a boater is going to react to an unknown threat.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

Heavy nightlife + night boating + 30 mph + accepted practice = potentially explosive conditions. Just becauce the lake is big doesn't mean one should make a 90 mile itinerary in the dark. I am not a namby pamby type either, but night boating presents real concerns.

Bad timing perhaps but OT: Water Patrol boat collision - ky3.com

"Heavy" nightlife might be a bit extreme. We're talking about a dozen boats that aren't leaving at the same time, who may have had a beer or two with a meal and went home. This isn't generally a bunch of people pounding beers for 3 hours then hopping in the boat (although I'm sure it does happen). Generally it's less than 5 or 6 boats in view in any one area of the lake at night.

The WP collision probably had as much to do with not having his lights on than it did "intoxication". Now we can argue that his intoxication caused him to forget about turning on the lights, but that's another story. If the WP had seen the other boat, the collision probably wouldn't have happened because the trooper would have been able to avoid the collision. Accidents are going to happen, we can't make any regulations that will eliminate that. One or two crashes per year on a lake as populated as LOTO or Grand is a pretty small percentage, so while it is unfortunate, it would be difficult to legislate a solution.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

I agree that his behavior was inscrutable at best. If I were you I'd contact the division that's responsible for LOTO and visit with the head of enforcement. If you approach him or her correctly, and if he or she is not a jerk, it should be a productive conversation. What you've said here shows you have the right attitude, and good public servants want input from responsible members of the public they're charged with serving and protecting. I recently took this approach after an encounter with a riverside enforcement crew that was ignorant of the law they were there to enforce. The results were encouraging.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

You think the lake is big? I'm on a river system that is well over 1000 miles long and ties into the gulf of mexico and thus the rest of the world..... If I felt that I had to travel to the end at 2 am I'd have to do about 300 mph and fly over the locks just to make it to the gulf by daybreak.

The size of the waterway makes no difference... the difference is visibility and on a boat at night visibility is rare... I HAVE been in conditions where traveling the right direction with either moonlight or reflected light from a big city and the water being glass, you can see quite well and travel that speed fairly safely. That of course assumes no other boat traffic... a few wakes and the glass is gone and the visibility with it.

My concern is that MANY of the boaters on the water don't have the judgement to slow down when they need to for safety which IMHO would be about 90% of the time.... We see boats here very often that would drive directly into a barge if the towboat operator didn't see them on radar and hit em with the spotlight..... it's a steel wall 20' high and 100+ feet wide and they can't see it till they are within a couple hundred feet and sometime MUCH closer.

The water hazards I refer to aren't underwater but rather above... perhaps a disabled boat with no power for lights or maybe dumb kids in a canoe without a flashlight. Heck maybe someone capsized... how visible IS black bottom paint covered with green scum at night and half a dozen heads sticking up holding on to the boat... chit happens

I go fast by day but I keep it near idle at night.

 

[moosehead]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

A quick search of LOTO shows that the USCG ranked it as the third most dangerous body of water after the Atlantic and the CO River, along with plenty of debate about alcohol, speed, and night time contributions to such.

Note my home port happens to be at the headwaters of the Colorado River, which also feeds big party and big speed lakes such as Mead and Powell. This is only pointed out to continue the conversation, not to point fingers unfairly.

Again, I am not condoning improper behavior by LEO's, but it seems to me that they have a very difficult job at LOTO.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

The water hazards I refer to aren't underwater but rather above... perhaps a disabled boat with no power for lights or maybe dumb kids in a canoe without a flashlight. Heck maybe someone capsized... how visible IS black bottom paint covered with green scum at night and half a dozen heads sticking up holding on to the boat... chit happens

I go fast by day but I keep it near idle at night.

True, but again, you're talking about reducing speed strictly because of probably less than 1 in a million chance that someone has capsized a boat and is also in the path of your boat at night? I'm not saying it wouldn't be tragic if it did happen, but you can't expect rules to be made to attempt to mitigate that particular risk. The primary risk, is a boat running into another boat, whether or not the lights are on is somewhat irrelevant). You won't see kids in a canoe out on the main lake where people are running up to 30mph. Maybe some small protected cove, but you'd have a death wish to try and cross a lake like LOTO at night in a boat that small.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

True, but again, you're talking about reducing speed strictly because of probably less than 1 in a million chance that someone has capsized a boat and is also in the path of your boat at night? I'm not saying it wouldn't be tragic if it did happen, but you can't expect rules to be made to attempt to mitigate that particular risk. The primary risk, is a boat running into another boat, whether or not the lights are on is somewhat irrelevant). You won't see kids in a canoe out on the main lake where people are running up to 30mph. Maybe some small protected cove, but you'd have a death wish to try and cross a lake like LOTO at night in a boat that small.

I wouldn't try to hit 30 in my 195 on LOTO in the dark (let alone be anywhere near the main channel in a canoe). Although I'm sure it must be calm there sometimes, when we were there it was a full time job just compensating for the waves from the big boys. It was so bad one day that I had to plow the road for my FIL's Malibu so that he could even make it back to the dock.

 

[Natesms]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

A quick search of LOTO shows that the USCG ranked it as the third most dangerous body of water after the Atlantic and the CO River, along with plenty of debate about alcohol, speed, and night time contributions to such.

Note my home port happens to be at the headwaters of the Colorado River, which also feeds big party and big speed lakes such as Mead and Powell. This is only pointed out to continue the conversation, not to point fingers unfairly.

Again, I am not condoning improper behavior by LEO's, but it seems to me that they have a very difficult job at LOTO.

I have no problems believing the 3rd most dangerous ranking. Big speed and big party lakes definitely have an impact. I wonder what volume of boats on other lakes have in comparison? Nothing in Missouri comes close to touching the numbers. It's hard for me to imagine there being to many LOTO out there.

Someone brought up a point I had not though of earlier and that is that maybe he was looking for someone in particular. In that case I could see why he did what he did. I've got a ~33 foot express cruiser, one of the most common types of boats on the lake. If he was after any type of express he'd have to get as close as he did to tell the make. Sort of brings me back to my original question about if others had experienced this and is it some type of tactic. Other than 1 person no one has said they have.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

I wouldn't try to hit 30 in my 195 on LOTO in the dark (let alone be anywhere near the main channel in a canoe). Although I'm sure it must be calm there sometimes, when we were there it was a full time job just compensating for the waves from the big boys. It was so bad one day that I had to plow the road for my FIL's Malibu so that he could even make it back to the dock.

I agree. Sometimes the lake conditions don't allow the normal guys to get going that fast. The 30mph speed limit is really for the go fast offshore types that could run 70+mph in those conditions without too much discomfort. Even the bass rockets that can run 80-90mph aren't doing it at night, and certainly not in anything but smooth water. I normally run around 20mph or so at night, myself on Grand.

Another aside to this discussion is that the danger of collision primarily exists for a handful of weekends per year on these lakes, where the other 45 weeks a year, the lakes are all but deserted except for the few locals. I can go out on the lake in October and not see much more than a handful of boats in sight over several miles of water, and you might be one of the only boats on the entire lake at night, so the speed limit/chance of collision is even less of a concern.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Water Patrol - BWI Tactics?

This boating at night discussion keeps coming up and there are ones who oppose anything over and idle and others who are full speed ahead, and some in between. The bottom line is boating within the guidelines of the law AND boating safely. There are some nights on Raystown that I feel very comfortable boating at 30 - 35 mph. These are bright nights with no one on the water, literally the whole lake to ourselves. There are other nights I wouldn't go much over 5 mph on the lake, dark, many boats, after a rain and much debris in the water, etc. It comes down to making safe decisions, not convenient ones.