what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Kanadakid, I'm not sure what's worse, being from Canada or living in Jersey. NO manufacturer had an oil that would pass the FC-W test....Until they changed their formula. Whether Amsoil changed their formula just before, at the time of or after the FC-W oil standard was developed is of no importance. <br /><br />The point of this discussion is or at least was....Is a non FC-W oil necessary? The answer is still no. Is an FC-W oil better than a non FC-W oil in marine use? The answer is yes, everything else being equal. Does use of a non FC-W oil violate the warranty requirements of any manufacturer who issues a statement that their product requires an FC-W oil. The answer is yes, but it depends on your lawyer.<br /><br />As to your other questions:<br /><br />Fuel dilution and water collecting in the crankcase can occur in any environment. Fresh, salt, hot, cold. It is worse in areas that are colder.<br /><br />As to why I am in the camp I'm in , The facts are the facts. I don't know jack crap about oils...except what I DO know about them. And I know more than you. Regardless of what you or I want to believe there are measurable differences in how an FC-W oil and a non FC-W will perform in marine use. It is very possible that a oil manufactuer may now or will in the future, have an oil that would pass the FC-W level, but not go through the certification process due to the cost. But that's not important, at least not to me <br /><br />If you knew me you would know that I don't cover for any manufacturer of anything. For the record, we almost never sell oil. We do give it away to people when they buy a new engine and we do use it in our service department. But here's the kicker...We charge the same thing for FC-W oil as we did for the older oil, $2.99 per quart. We make less off of the new oil than we did off the older type's. <br /><br />You can believe what you want. I'm not going to change your mind. But I do hope that you will consider the possibility that you might be mistaken about how all this works. Think about it. I was wrong in a post earlier in this theme ..FC-W has nothing to do with cylinder walls drying. See how easy it is to admit a mistake. When your wrong your wrong <br /><br />Also, has anyone else seen the irony that in a forum about oil( a lubricant), there is nothing but friction?

 

[Kanadakid]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

International you stated,<br /><br /> The answer is additives and they changed the formulation <br /><br />Please tell me the changes. Zink ? Not really needed in synthetics.<br /><br />And yes one of the key issues is what is in their oil currently or in the past that justifies $11.00 per quart of oil.<br /><br />The amsoil folks told me that Mobile one, mobile one , purple would pass the test with ease.<br /><br />Truth.....there is nothing special in the manufacturers oils that warrent their over priced charges.<br /><br />I'm not from Canada. I just love going there to the lakes for fishing. I had some amazing times with freinds and family there. <br /><br /> I'm not particularlly proud of being from New Jersey. The only good thing is I'm right on the river across a 1/4 mile from Pennsylvania. I like where I live but don't like the rest of the state.<br /><br /><br />Kid

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

I have no idea what the additives are that different manufacturers put in their oil. Even if I did know...I wouldn't have a clue as to what they do. I do agree with you that oil is highly overpriced...All of it. But your still missing the point. It is an absolute certainty that each manufacturer had to change their oil to meet that FC-W specification. The cost is not particularly important to anyone who boats(at least it shouldn't be) because overall it a very small percentage of the total cost of boating. <br /><br />The Canada/Jersey jibe was not intended as anything other than a gentle ribbing

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Kanadakid and Bass'n Fever, no oil company is going to divulge the ingredients or formulation of their oil. No lab or lab employee is allowed to distribute such information. <br /><br />Even if they could, it wouldn't help you. Any combination, in any quantity and number of components, could be reason enough to pass the FC-W testing. Without knowing exactly what's in the oil, and testing the actual performance of that oil (engine wear measurements) one can not speculate what causes it to pass FC-W. For example, there are so many different types of oil bases, and any variety of hydrocarbon structures for each one of those bases alone. We could spend a year just discussing oil bases. Then there's additives. There are too many ways for a formula to address dilution, dispersants, detergents, anti-foaming, demulsibility, viscosity improvers, high temperature shear stability, corossion, wear, solubility, neutrualization of acids, carbon, etc. Not to mention any combination of additives can be either good or detrimental when it comes time for performance. It's not just about ZDDP. If an FC-W oil had high levels of Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophoshpates or some secret new element known to mankind, it wouldn't be cause enough to certify as a FC-W oil. In fact, it may be a detrement when it comes time to perform. The entire formulation, as a whole, must be evaluated and only after actual outboard performance testing.<br /><br />What I can tell you (since you believe there is no difference in automotive oils and FC-W oils) is that all FC-W oils start out with with a gasoline rating (SJ for example). As expected the FC-W mandates basic viscosity tests, specific gravity, TBN and TAN, and reporting on basic elementals, sulphur and nitrogen. But then the NMMA requires seven performance bench tests including foam, shear stability, high temperature high-shear, Noack volatility, filterability, endurance, and corrosion tests, each with limits <br />established by NMMA's Oil Certification Committee unique to marine use (up to 10% fuel dilution, outboard cylinder liner corossion, WOT in-tank testing, etc). These tests are ASTM-monitored. That is what makes the oil different. Again, the same type of differences in testing make a TC-W3 oil and an API automotive oil different too. Automotive oils have undergone recent changes, mostly due to emissions. Less additives and lighter grades. These changes are not necessarily good for marine engines.<br /><br />As far as the price of these oils, they are a low-volume, specialty niche. What do you expect? Regardless, I have never seen a FC-W oil for $11.00/quart. That is exaggeration. Typically they run $3.50 to $4.50 a quart. I saw one for $2.79. Not much different (and probably cheaper) than your Amsoil, Mobil 1, and Royal Purple. Of course we know the niche of TC-W3 oils and HP injection oils make them very expensive too.<br /><br />BTW, according to NMMA's Director of Engineering Standards Tom Marhevko, who oversees the oil licensing program, the cost to certify a FC-W oil is $1500. Not $1 million.

 

[Jan Z]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

I sure wish I had bid on the popcorn and drink concession on this thread. <br /><br /><br />As for the oil, I guess I'll continue to support my local bandit (Boat dealer) and continue to buy the Yamaha oil...I'd sure hate to see his kids starve. <br /><br />Yes I'm joking, the price of the oil isn't seriously out of line and he knocks off some $$$ on other boat stuff stuff so it's a fair tradeoff.<br /><br />An interesting thread... Thank you all for an interesting and informative read about oil.

 

[moderator1]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

and LubeDude (Bass'n Fever or whoever you are),

Doc, now this is the stuff that get's threads poofed...Would it be OK if I revealed to everyone what your user name was before the current TheOilDoc????<br />Like you, he can change his handle if he wishes to.<br />Would have been just fine without the above comment...please keep it UN-personal.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

moderator1, that member switched his user name half way into this thread. I simply don't know how I'm supposed to address him. I meant nothing "personal".<br /> <br /><br />In this thread 11 posts were made by him under his handle "LubeDude". Then his last 2 were under "Bass'n Fever". He also started a thread HERE about changing his user name, including a comment about leaving his avatar so people would still recognize him as the "LubeDude". Because of that I assumed, as anyone would, that referring to him as either LubeDude or Bass'n Fever would not be taken personally. I also assumed that using two seperate user names to address the same member's discussion would be confusing, so I used both. It's like tip-toeing on glass with this member, never knowing what reaction he will display toward me. <br /><br />Moderator1, you have misinterpreted my comment as a personal one, and again I can assure you it wasn't. I also think it was inappropriate to point a finger at me in regards to getting this (very civil) discussion "poofed". I have been just as civil as anyone here, particularly considering the attempts to aggravate me. It was also inappropriate to suggest I have changed my user name. "TheOilDoc" is the only name I have ever registered at iboats, and I don't intend on changing it. If keeping this thread on track was your concern, you certainly could've discussed your concerns via e-mail rather than in the middle of a thread that many members are finding useful. Your post will be what causes this thread to take a turn for the worse.<br /><br />I have been at a loss with this member due to his attacks since I began participating at iboats. If you read his initial comment to me, as well as those he admittedly makes about being disrespectful to me, you will understand. Unfortunately, your post has not helped that, but rather it rubs salt in the wound.<br /><br />Out of courtesy to you, I will edit both usernames and just use his latest. I am not able to go back and edit those in this thread where he posted as "LubeDude". Unless I have actually broken some iboat rule, I hope we can put this to rest.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br />In this thread 11 posts were made by him under his handle "LubeDude". Then his last 2 were under "Bass'n Fever".

Thanks Mod 1 for the support, but I have to admit that the whole thing was confusing. <br /><br />There was no intention of confusing anyone, and thats why I never changed my avitar.<br /><br />Back to the original thread:<br /><br />Im not sure that I beleive that: "There were no oils that would pass the FC-W test without making one".<br /><br />Also, There didnt seem to be a bunch of engines out there going to H*ll in a handbasket before this new improved version came along (FC-W).<br /><br />Its also not true that synthetics just by nature dont need Zink! The synthetic is still just a Base Stock. You will find very few with any Moly though.

 

[moderator1]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Nothing personal was meant...I will apologize and ask that we stick to the topic.<br />Yes, others have "felt" for the lines edge as well, but I would only ask that you and everyone else that has posted here please do not cross that line. It takes 2 to "get along" and 2 to "not get along".<br />Personally, I find your information very useful, and helpful..there will always be differences of opinion, and I take your info as fact, but it doesn't change the occasional "Stab" that has been taken by both "sides", if it can be called that. Continue on...

 

[LubeDude]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Sure, I have already decided to be as polite as I can be from now on.<br /><br />Dang, but it was just so much fun, I guess it was at anothers expence though. Ill do my best! Its just that, Oh well, nevever mind. I can see that its going to be harder than I thought.

 

[Kanadakid]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Whoa boys , I missed something. Just to re state my intentions. I mean no ill will towards any of our boating friends here. <br /><br />There has been nothing said to me that is upsetting from a personal perspective. A couple of jabs maybe. The Being from new jersy comment was right....not a good state.<br /><br />Now back to the topic. <br /><br />1) If the 4 stroke market is such a small market, then why does Yamaha, mercury even bother with it. Wouldn't it be easier to let the oil companies handle it ? Not. It is a huge revenue stream. <br /><br /><br />2) This (4 Stroke Marine oil) may have been a low volume market, but not anymore. All 2 strokes are being replaced by either a 4 stroke or a DFI newrer 2 stroke. In the past 4 stroke was limited to a very selsect market. However,<br />Now 4 strokes are being sold at a much more rapid pace.<br /><br />3) Why all the secrecy regarding oil ? Because confusion allows them to suggest, unless you use this oil...you could be jepardizing you warrenty.<br /><br />4) The cost is not even the major issue. It is performance. A few of the guys were kind enought to recall an article in Trailer boats magazine where they did some testing and found<br />Mobile one outperformed Yamalube. <br /><br /><br />5) which oild failed ?<br /><br />Yet we would be told not to use it by the manufacterer and they would suggest their oil even though it didn't perform as well.<br /><br />And yamalube would charge more for it.<br /><br />Since the engine manufacuters can't tell you to only use their oil, the NMMA is just another way around that and is the next best thing. <br /><br />They can set up a test, offer a standard that does not include most of their competiton, and tell consumers that you can only use this rated oil.<br /><br />Its really just another way of skinning the same cat. <br /><br />Doc, and how much is it for a manufacurer to put the F-WC logo on the bottle ?<br /><br />For engine manufacuters ?<br /><br />For oil companies like amsoil ?<br /><br />$ 1,500. for NMMA members ( Engine manufacturers)<br /><br />How much for those companies like Exxon ?<br /><br /><br />So now if I understand you correctly Doc, a $1,500.00 doallr test is the basis upon which we are suposed to decide which oil to put in our expensive high performance outboard engines ?<br /><br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Kid

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

I approached this from the wrong angle. The manufacturers do not care about the oil itself. They don't sell enough of it to take the heat from the public. Their primary focus is on their engine. They want people to use an oil that will provide the most protection to their product. By reducing warranty claims for problems associated with "regular oil", and fuel dilution is a MAJOR problem, they reduce their exposure to warranty claims and irate consumers. Manufacturers actually want more oil companies to produce and market oils that meet their guidelines. It seems like they are trying to limit the consumers choice, but they aren't. All engine manufacturers list rival oils in their owners manuals. It costs the engine manufacturer to test and aprove each one....So they pick and choose who they give that little helpful push to.<br /><br />As OilDoc pointed out, it's how the oil performs, not what's in it, that counts.<br /><br />And while the oil market is not a huge profit point,(it is huge by % of profit, but small by total revenue) they attempt to capture as much of it as they can.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Origianlly posted by Kanadakid:<br /><br />1) If the 4 stroke [oil] market is such a small market, then why does Yamaha, mercury even bother with it.

Because they designed the engines that require it. They are the ones demanding a better oil. You can't design an engine for a unique application and not specify or supply the oil necessary for that engine to perform as designed.<br /><br />Yamaha, Mercury and others recognized that the latest API automotive oil ratings were emission driven, resulting in lighter viscosities and weaker additive packages that were absent of the performance necessary for marine enignes.<br /><br />Outboard makers helped the NMMA, oil and additive companies, and test labs create the FC-W specifications. They felt their engines needed something more than automotive oil. Besides, they have always supplied the necessary oil to their customers. Why wouldn't they? They've always supplied NMMA's TC-W3 oils. <br /><br /><br />Wouldn't it be easier to let the oil companies handle it ? Not.<br /><br />They do. Yamaha, Mercury and the other outboard makers don't manufacture their own oil. They specify to their supplier how they want their oil to perform, and then they stick their label on it. Some customers happen find value and benefit to buying OEM specified oil over XYZ oil company's oil.<br /><br /> <br />It is a huge revenue stream.<br /><br />So? Are you against a private business making money? Or do you think they should give their oil away? Regardless, you have no idea what kind of revenue OEMs make from selling oil. It remains a small volume specialty niche that is reflected in the price, just like the outboards themselves.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by Kanadakid:<br /><br />2) This (4 Stroke Marine oil) may have been a low volume market, but not anymore. All 2 strokes are being replaced by either a 4 stroke or a DFI newrer 2 stroke. In the past 4 stroke was limited to a very selsect market. However, Now 4 strokes are being sold at a much more rapid pace.

And all the more reason why 4 stroke outboards can no longer be treated like automobiles.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by Kanadakid:<br /><br />3) Why all the secrecy regarding oil

We're still waiting for that Coke formula and your tax returns too. <br /><br />Again, lets say I did give you an oil formula ABCXYZ. How are you going to determine if that is the best oil for your outboard, or if it's even a usable oil? Could you please answer that, since we keep going round and round and round...??<br /><br /><br />Because confusion allows them to suggest, unless you use this oil...you could be jepardizing you warrenty.<br /><br />There is no confusion with the FC-W certification. It either has it or it doesn't. It's available, and it's no more expensive than those automotive synthetics you metion. There's really no excuse to jeopardize your warranty by not using it. Confusion would come if oil makers told you their ingredients and formulas. <br /><br />Do you think outboard manufacturers should cover warranty claims caused by using any oil, say an air-cool oil or a heating oil? Or do you think they have a right to specify an oil that their engine was designed to run on?<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by Kanadakid:<br /><br />4) The cost is not even the major issue. It is performance.

Ok. So how do you know if your non-FC-W automotive oil performs like a FC-W oil? Answer: You don't.<br /><br /><br />A few of the guys were kind enought to recall an article in Trailer boats magazine where they did some testing and found Mobile one outperformed Yamalube.<br /><br />I don't recall that magazing performing the fuel dilution tests, in-tank endurance tests with engine tear-downs, the cylinder strip salt-fog tests, the high-temp shear tests, etc. all by using proven ASTM testing procedures and FC-W marine standards. <br /><br />As someone who's professionally tested outboard oils, in my opinion that was simply a backyard test published by a non-professional. Magazines contain paid advertisements and paid opinions that are very seldom unbiased. But you certainly have the right to put more weight on that type of testing than the testing done by the ASTM and NMMA. <br /><br />Again, Mobil 1 is great oil and it may very well meet the requirements of FC-W. But until it is certified as FC-W, we can not assume it is. BTW, Mobil has told me that it does not meet FC-W.<br /><br /><br />

Originally posted by Kanadakid:<br /><br />Yet we would be told not to use it by the manufacterer and they would suggest their oil even though it didn't perform as well.

An outboard manufacturer has no way of knowing if another oil performs as well as their own or not. They aren't going to take the word of you, the oil company, or some magazine. They simply specify FC-W, any FC-W. I know of no outboard manufacture that says you can't use another specified oil. They specify FC-W, but only recommend their brand. Of course you can always use whatever you want.<br /><br /><br />And yamalube would charge more for it.<br /><br />Round and round and round...<br /><br />You don't have to buy Yamaha oil, or any oil! And Yamaha doesn't require that you buy their oil! They only specify a FC-W. Use and buy whatever you want!<br /><br /><br />Since the engine manufacuters can't tell you to only use their oil, the NMMA is just another way around that and is the next best thing.<br /><br />If that's the case, why would Yamaha, Merc and the others believe in an organization that certifies their competitor's oil? Why would these manufacturers voluntarily impose the more strict requirements of the FC-W rating on themselves?<br /><br /><br />They can set up a test, offer a standard that does not include most of their competiton, and tell consumers that you can only use this rated oil.<br /><br />But that's not what they do. The engine manufacturers together, along with oil makers, additive and formulators, ASTM, accredited test labs, professional trade organizations, and so on set up the tests. The standards are open for any competitor to participate with. And consumers are not required to use any particular brand. And of course consumers always have the choice of not even using the FC-W rating, if that's what they want.<br /><br /><br />So now if I understand you correctly Doc, a $1,500.00 doallr test is the basis upon which we are suposed to decide which oil to put in our expensive high performance outboard engines ?<br /><br />I don't think you understand the certification process.<br /><br />Each oil maker is responsible for developing and testing their own oil. You can't possibly expect the voluntary, non-profit NMMA to financially support how every oil is developed to meet FC-W.<br /><br />Once an oil maker develops his FC-W oil, he chooses which NMMA OCC approved lab (using NMMA's FC-W standards) will test it. If the oil meets FC-W standards, as tested by the NMMA OCC approved lab, the oil company presents the test results and an FC-W application to NMMA's OTDC for certification approval (or not). The fee for NMMA's FC-W certification is $1,500. Again, the NMMA is not financially responsible for developing an oil that meets FC-W standards. The costs incurred by the oil company to develop and test a FC-W oil are unknown and would vary significantly. But that's what selling a product is all about and there are always costs involved in developing and testing products. Chances are the costs would be similar to those associated with developing and testing any TC-W3 or API automotive oil.

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Exactly INTERNETOUTBORDS.<br /><br />Wear, rust, corossion, shear qualities, fuel dilution, demand for performance increases, decreasing levels of the antiwear additives and viscosities in off-th-shelf automotive oils...<br /><br />all things the manufacturers are trying to address with FC-W to lessen warranty impacts and provide a better oil.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by TheOilDoc:<br /><br />A few of the guys were kind enought to recall an article in Trailer boats magazine where they did some testing and found Mobile one outperformed Yamalube.<br /><br />I don't recall that magazing performing the fuel dilution tests, in-tank endurance tests with engine tear-downs, the cylinder strip salt-fog tests, the high-temp shear tests, etc. all by using proven ASTM testing procedures and FC-W marine standards. <br /><br /> [/QB]

According to the Trailer Boats Magazine article, Mobil 1 only outperformed Yamalube 2M in their unscientific rust test. The Evinrude 4-stroke oil outperformed Mobil 1 in the same test. They did describe what the salt fog test was for the FC-w rating, but did say their test was unscientific. The salt fog test is only for 24 hours while the Trailer Boat's rust test was for a month in salt air. They heated their oiled metal strips above 200 degrees several times to simulate the oil temperature fluctuations inside a motor. The NMMA salt fog tests uses virgin oil in which special metal coupons are dipped, then hung inside a humid chamber for 24 hours.<br /><br /><br />The magazine did not do any of the NMMA required tests, it was an article to aquaint folks about the differences between inexpensive car oil and the OB manufacturer's own oils.

 

[OBMD]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Around 2001-2002, the auto industry asked for fewer corrosion inhibators in the oils as damage to catalytic converters was occuring. (Emission warranty) At that time the rating was "SJ". The oil companies decreased the corrosion inhibators and the rating became "SL". "SL" oils do not offer the same measure of protection as "SJ" oils. 4S outboard motors need as much corrosion prevention as possible.<br /><br />Oils used in outboards, both 2S & 4S are like religion. Either you believe or you don't.

 

[JRJ]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Originally posted by OBMD:<br /> Around 2001-2002, the auto industry asked for fewer corrosion inhibators in the oils as damage to catalytic converters was occuring. (Emission warranty) At that time the rating was "SJ". The oil companies decreased the corrosion inhibators and the rating became "SL". "SL" oils do not offer the same measure of protection as "SJ" oils. 4S outboard motors need as much corrosion prevention as possible.<br /><br />Oils used in outboards, both 2S & 4S are like religion. Either you believe or you don't.

Thanks for that info

 

[TheOilDoc]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Thank you seahorse. The Magazine test was certainly unscientific, and as a result inconclusive.<br /><br />The real FC-W salt-fog test uses actual metal coupons cut from cylinder wall material. I'm not sure what the magazine used. The coupons are ultrasonically cleaned at a certain temperature, with a measured concentration of a special detergent. The coupons are rinsed with water at a certain temperature, then rinsed with naphtha to remove the water, then rinsed with acetone. No finger contact is allowed. The coupons are allowed to stabalize at room temp for 30 minutes. Then they are submerged in the candidate oil, and agitated for 10 seconds. Then resubmerged for one minute with light agitation. Then they are hung to drain for 2 hours at room temperature. Next they are hung in a salt humidity cabinet that is designed with a special drip deflector. ASTM B117 establishes a 5% sodium chloride mixture maintained at 95F with a collection rate of 1-2 ml per hour and a pH of 6.5-7.2. This is done for 24 hours. After 24 hours the coupons are rinsed with naphtha, then again with water, then again with acetone. Finally the coupons are evaluated in comparison to a reference oil by a trained professional, based on the area covered by corrosion, not the intensity of the corrosion.<br /><br /><br />I would agree with OBMD, as I posted...<br /><br />"Yamaha, Mercury and others recognized that the latest API automotive oil ratings were emission driven, resulting in lighter viscosities and weaker additive packages that were absent of the performance necessary for marine enignes."<br /><br />"Automotive oils have undergone recent changes, mostly due to emissions. Less additives and lighter grades. These changes are not necessarily good for marine engines."<br /><br />

 

[JRJ]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

Thanks to The OilDoc et al. I think I'll switch to a FC-W and run my remaining SL rated oil through something besides my O/B <br /><br />Now wait, what about Delo 400 in an outboard?

 

[mattttt25]

Re: what oil brands do you use on Yamaha 4 strokes

let's see.... i bought my new boat last spring and ran it about 100 hrs. when winterizing, had the oil changed. won't worry about it for another year. who cares if the oil is a few bucks more than it should be? isn't that why we all bought 4-strokes?