When to start running synthetic oil

[HT32BSX115]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

I have searched the Internet and have found nothing to back up your claims. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) web site also lists no technical papers of any kind backing up your claims. Sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejExtOcV5aI

You guys are giving me a headache! I am not a "Maniacal", Chemical, automotive, or petroleum Engineer, (I am an electrical engineer but I don't use it!!!....I did learn to do research though!!)

Yeah.... SAE doesn't specify tests either, It's the ASTM. http://www.astm.org/index.shtml


The oil industry in general doesn't use a test like the one in the above video for testing motor oil. (that thing is made out of a can opener!!!) That one is a Ba3tardizazion of

ASTM D6078 - 04 Standard Test Method for Evaluating Lubricity of Diesel Fuels by the Scuffing Load Ball-on-Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator (SLBOCLE)

And maybe the 4-ball lubricity tester that conforms to ASTM 4172. You all can look that up!



The main tests for motor oils are VERY standardized. (and changing every year!!)

I found that AMSOIL, (I am NOT an Amsoil distributor nor do I use it) DOES post a claim of using that test to compare their oils to other oils.

My opinion is that if they post that claim referencing an ASTM standard, they have to back it up.

And I think they do. You're gonna have to take their word for it though.....

Most of the oil producers don't mention the above test in their marketing "stuff"




Automotive engines of today aren't really a problem with that test since they have roller followers in the valve train. (and there's a test for them too!!......ASTM D 5966)

ASTM 4172 is more applicable to flat tappet valve train wear..... Now this thread can move to ZDDP and Slick-50 and other snake juice!!!


Bottom line?

Put what the manufacturer suggests putting in your engine, and change it when they say to change it.

You're better off worrying about draining the raw water for winter time....


JMHO........



Rick

 

[JoLin]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

I have searched the Internet and have found nothing to back up your claims. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) web site also lists no technical papers of any kind backing up your claims. Sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejExtOcV5aI

Thanks for that- very entertaining. A retired engineer friend of mine did a months-long back and forth debate via e-mail with the folks at Mobil-1. He claims they finally acknowledged that there was no published, apples-to-apples comparison to prove the superiority of syn oil over dino.

I swore off synthetic long ago as not being worth the cost. Regular oil changes to remove contaminants, and using the correct viscosity have the most to do with engine life, IMO.

My .02

 

[Bluestream]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

Yeah.... SAE doesn't specify tests either, It's the ASTM. http://www.astm.org/index.shtml

Actually the SAE does an incredible amount of testing on motor oils. You need to belong to access their technical papers. Only costs like $10 to join, so well worth it.

The oil industry in general doesn't use a test like the one in the above video for testing motor oil. (that thing is made out of a can opener!!!) That one is a Ba3tardizazion of

Oil industry may nor use it, but companies like Slick 50 have used it for years in their TV commercials. I only posted the link to make the point that all is not always as is seems...

ASTM D6078 - 04 Standard Test Method for Evaluating Lubricity of Diesel Fuels by the Scuffing Load Ball-on-Cylinder Lubricity Evaluator (SLBOCLE)

And maybe the 4-ball lubricity tester that conforms to ASTM 4172. You all can look that up!



The main tests for motor oils are VERY standardized. (and changing every year!!)

I found that AMSOIL, (I am NOT an Amsoil distributor nor do I use it) DOES post a claim of using that test to compare their oils to other oils.

My opinion is that if they post that claim referencing an ASTM standard, they have to back it up.

And I think they do. You're gonna have to take their word for it though.....

Most of the oil producers don't mention the above test in their marketing "stuff"

Here is what Mobil thinks of the 4 ball wear test: (from their web site)

Question:
Response to Amsoil Competitive Claims
What is your position/response to the 4 ball wear test Amsoil states on their website? Do you agree with the test results or are there other test results you could point me to. Thanks
-- Todd Blake, Andover, MN

Answer:
The 4-ball wear test is a test designed to evaluate the performance of a gear oil. The 4-ball wear test is not included as a part of any industry-wide recognized engine oil specifications (e.g. ILSAC GF-4, API SM, or ACEA specifications). ExxonMobil does not regard this test as a useful indicator of engine oil performance.



Cheers!

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

Here is what Mobil thinks of the 4 ball wear test: (from their web site)

Question:
Response to Amsoil Competitive Claims
What is your position/response to the 4 ball wear test Amsoil states on their website? Do you agree with the test results or are there other test results you could point me to.

Answer:
The 4-ball wear test is a test designed to evaluate the performance of a gear oil. The 4-ball wear test is not included as a part of any industry-wide recognized engine oil specifications (e.g. ILSAC GF-4, API SM, or ACEA specifications). ExxonMobil does not regard this test as a useful indicator of engine oil performance.

I'm not sure what your point is here.


You have one oil marketing company commenting on what an other oil marketing company claims, because the "claim" makes their oil look "bad"?


ExxonMobile doesn't regard an ASTM standard test as "useful"? It may have something to do with the fact that their oil didn't do as well in that ASTM standard test as their competitor.........

As I said. Most of the other oil manufacturers don't even mention that test because there's really no component in todays engines that would benefit (except flat tappets maybe)

Actually the SAE does an incredible amount of testing on motor oils. You need to belong to access their technical papers. Only costs like $10 to join, so well worth it.

well....I didn't say the SAE "doesn't do tests" I just said they don't "specify" them. The ASTM does..... (actually, the SAE, ASME, ASTM, NMMA, and many others collaborate on all the standards then the ASTM puts it all together....)

Oil industry may nor use it, but companies like Slick 50 have used it for years in their TV commercials. I only posted the link to make the point that all is not always as is seems...

You sure got that one right !!!! It's a real "smoke & mirrors test isn't it?

I wonder if Slick 50 used it before or after they were sued by the FTC (and lost) for making all those false claims!

 

[444]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

Any engine can run synthetic oil from day one. This myth was stated years ago by the first synthetic oil companies in an attempt to differential their oil and make is seem to be a better product.

Okay, try and break in a new flat tappet camshaft with synthetic oil and tell me how it goes. Tell me how much fun it was to change bearings and clean out all your oil pressure passages to get out all the metal shavings from the cam lobes you wiped during break-in. The cam manufacturer which specifically instructed you to run conventional oil with a hi-zinc additive and now won't warranty your cam because you chose to break it in with synthetic. But hey, any engine can run synthetic from day one.

Moly coated rings seat pretty quickly but regular cast rings take a bit longer. Why would you want to tempt fate and try to break them in with synthetic? Sure, newer engines use moly rings and roller cams so they're not as sensitive(I would still choose to break in any type of rings with dino oil) but guys rebuild older engine all the time. I just used cast rings and an flat tappet cam in my last build.

I would never be so presumptuous as to make such blanket statements like 'any engine can use synthetic oil at any time'. You clearly do not know how crucial that first 20 minute break-in routine is on a flat tappet cam and you still want to run a break-in oil for the next 10-15 hours after that.

 

[Bluestream]

Re: When to start running synthetic oil

Okay, try and break in a new flat tappet camshaft with synthetic oil and tell me how it goes. Tell me how much fun it was to change bearings and clean out all your oil pressure passages to get out all the metal shavings from the cam lobes you wiped during break-in. The cam manufacturer which specifically instructed you to run conventional oil with a hi-zinc additive and now won't warranty your cam because you chose to break it in with synthetic. But hey, any engine can run synthetic from day one.

Moly coated rings seat pretty quickly but regular cast rings take a bit longer. Why would you want to tempt fate and try to break them in with synthetic? Sure, newer engines use moly rings and roller cams so they're not as sensitive(I would still choose to break in any type of rings with dino oil) but guys rebuild older engine all the time. I just used cast rings and an flat tappet cam in my last build.

I would never be so presumptuous as to make such blanket statements like 'any engine can use synthetic oil at any time'. You clearly do not know how crucial that first 20 minute break-in routine is on a flat tappet cam and you still want to run a break-in oil for the next 10-15 hours after that.

Marine synthetic oil has all the Zinc you need for your flat tappet camshaft.