Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

[PW2]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

Us "bleeding heart liberals" would indeed certainly prefer there were no violations of basic human rights worldwide. No question about it.<br /><br />At the same time we are realistic enough to understand that there is no way we can assume the role of the world's police force, and enforce our values on the rest of the world. Heck, I don't agree with capital punishment in this country, but so it goes.<br /><br /> Of course leads to all sorts of gray areas. What is too bad for us to simply ignore? What criteria do we use to decide? These are difficult questions.<br /><br />Certainly a specific threat posed to us presents a compelling reason to take action, when we must of necessity ration where we take action, and why. That is why this war was sold to us based on not what Saddam did to his citizens. He was bad, certainly, but the world is full of bad guys. It was sold to us based on the threat he posed to us. That was at best miscalculated, if not manipulated.<br /><br />Are we glad he is gone? Sure, but it depends who replaces him, and it confuses the process of how we decide how we ration our limited capability to rid the world of evil, and whether it was the best use of those limited capabilities.<br /><br />It is a complex, nuanced world, that simply does not lend itself to black and white solutions, unfortunately.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

LF<br /> the no-fly zone violations were a joke as most of saddams aircraft are in possesion of the Iranians, most flew there for protection during the first gulf war and they never returned them. imagine that.<br /> the Iranians are also in possesion of about 70 F-14 aircraft supplied by the US in the 70's. rumor and satilite photos indicate the russians are currently upgrading the avionics and engines to use russian power and electronics on a US airframe. should be interesting anyway.<br /> most americans have no idea how convoluted the US policy has been nor why so many of the mid-east leaders like to rattle their sabers.<br /> but most Iraqi technology was supplied by France,england and the US.<br /> at lest we knew what he had cause we had the reciepts.<br /> but no he was not getting stronger. I doubt his weapon program would have gotten much further than the paper/propaganda stage it was at in the 90's.<br /> nuclear energy and research takes tremendous amounts of electricity and Iraq simply could not produce enough and we actually monitored the power grid .<br /> its one method of deducing whats going on.<br /> were saddams methods of control brutal and extreme? yep. but so was the US method of control a tad brutal during our indian wars.<br />was his gassing of the kurds,with US chemicals made in a UK plant in Iraq, brutal? yep. next question is why did he do it? did he wake up bored one morning?<br /> ya have to go back a bit, during the Iran-Iraq war the US encoraged the Kurds to Rise against saddam with the promise that the US had their backs. saddam ended victorious and we left the Kurds out to dry, about the best we did was the no-fly zone over their territory. they are still a tad pissed about it.<br /> so after the uprising and the US pullout in the late 80's saddam decided to deal with the rebellious Kurds.<br /> was brutal but effective.<br />am I glad he is gone? yep. but not with the pissy poor planning and the way it was done. the failure to have a plan is almost crimminal.<br />its also why we stopped in 91. we had no plan as to how to effectivly control Iraqs borders and how to replace saddam in the power vacum his removal would create.<br /> seems jr failed to heed daddy.<br />now its all turned to a qugmire when it should not have.<br /> the general that originally planned the invasion asked for about 400K troops, part to invade the others to secure the borders while the invasion was in progress. Rumsfeld fired him and went in with roughly 110K and here we are today.

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

rodbolt,<br />most americans... most americans... most americans....<br /><br />It's very hard to read what you right because you're always telling us how much smarter you are than most americans....<br /><br />How many hands is that horse?

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

I prefer the "Team America - World Police" method. <br /><br />Rodbolt, yea I know we are paying for our mistakes and have done this many times before. Lets all hope we get it right this time.<br /><br />Iraq was a special case.<br />One - Saddam was a enemy of the USA and there was always a threat he could make some sort of WMD if left unchecked.<br />Two - We need the oil. Yep I said it. If not for the oil, the mid east would have been long forgotten. Shame on us for trying to keep this country great (insert sarcasim here).<br /><br />Ken

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

I am not smarter, if I was I would be on an Island somewhere. however I work with folks daily dealing with issues that a very small amount of reading could have solved. I delt with various employees over the years along with co-workers and a 3 year stretch of schools in the USN, most folks I talk to say I hate to read, about 1/2 of those are functionally illeterate.<br /> its amazing how many of todays high school and college grads are that way.<br /> I was in COA program not long ago to assist in developing a course and even minor techincal reading was overwhelming to most.<br /> next time your in the grocery store ask the clerk what year the declaration of independance was signed then ask what year it had final radification.<br /> or ask what year did WWII end or about anyother minor question and see how many blank looks you get.<br /> but ask them what nascar driver is favored to win or how many yards some idiot threw for and all the details will come forth.<br /> or even ask them what year we declared war on germany, most dont realize that germany declared war on the US or we would have most likly not entered the european conflict.<br />yes history gets dry, but it also tends to repeat itself as human nature really has not changed in several thousand years.<br /> so no I am no smarter I just wish folks would read and anylize what they read before hollering about an injustice whether real or precieved.<br /> ask anyone what our civil war was about,99 out of 100 will incorrectly say slvery.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Who would've thought that Saddam could be missed

wow hit the button to fast <br /> horse is about 15.5, mostly she is a yard dog but she is my baby so I keep her about.<br />she is a big a pain as the hunter/killer cats that are currently asleep all over the house.<br /><br /> point taken on the "most" ill try to refrain from it. <br /> I spent way to much time reading and the internet has not made it better.<br /> however,like today, my hips dont move well and the artheritis in my breastbone is making breathing tough. so I read, a lot.<br /> most articles are very slanted towards the writers view. however references to battles,political statements and treaties are written down and researched from a more reliable source. the office of the inspector general and the general accounting office sites are fairly reliable as are some of the library of congress sites.<br /> sometimes it takes a long time and many tries to find a reliable source to sort out the fact from the slant.<br /> if you look long enough there are some sites that can tell which companies have had what export licenses and what they exported and to where.<br />as a child I had some severe asthma issues, we later found were environmentaly caused, so I could not go out much.<br /> I developed a love of reading history and biographies, non fiction I rarely read nor do I read much sci-fi. history is much better.<br />my intrest in modern mid-east history and the wests policies came in the late 80's when I realized I may be sent there and die.<br /> so I wanted to know why.<br />I wanted to know why the mid-east is mainly a footnote in history from the 1700's to the mid 1900's and is all of a sudden a forefront.<br /> some of it is disgusting and most of it was classified for years not due to national security but national embarresment, now no one cares to read anyof it.<br /> but its there.<br /> whether its read or belived or ignored in civics 101 does not negate the fact its there.