Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

[haulnazz15]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Cost ^^^^

Why do home builders use wood? Why not use Formula 1 engines in everything? Why not use carbon fiber hulls in a jon boat?

I just can't see the cost being that much more to use composite materials. Especially when you consider the waste and extra time involved in having wood transom pieces/stringers cut and encased in fiberglass as opposed to composite transom/stringer pieces that could be formed in with the hull molds. I would pay an extra $3K on a new boat in order to have the composite structure.

They could call it the "Never Rot" package!

 

[howlnmad]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

They'd stick a nuclear reactor in a boat if people would pay for it.

They already do. I just can't afford the Enterprise (insert pic) and she's a tad big for the waters I frequent .
Had to add some humor.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Interesting thread. Once I started boat shopping I kind of wondered why there weren't more EFI engines out there. Carbs aren't 10 years behind the times, they're more like 25 to 30 years behind the times. I've never had an EFI car not start, or sit there and crank for a minute before firing up. Even in -20?F MN winters, even my old 96 Neon started with a couple turns every time. However, with carbed cars, there's been plenty of times where I needed to sit there and pump the throttle, hold it to the floor, choke it, worry about flooding, etc etc etc. Carbs might be easy for the shadetree mechanic to tune, but the point of EFI is that you never have to tune it (unless of course you modify the engine).

I assume that all computers, wiring etc. would be water-sealed on a boat, so I'm not seeing the fear of EFI. If anything, EFI is 10x more reliable than a controlled fuel-leak (carburetor) system. I'm new to marine engines though, so perhaps there's something I'm missing.

I don't have carbs, either. See my sig. Throttle-body injection in a 1999 boat. Hardly cutting edge in 1999, but that's okay by me. I stand by my post- I don't want the newest thing out there in my boat. I want stuff that's been proven reliable.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

It's the engines driving those drives that have not kept up with the automotive industry.

You can go out today and buy a 1350 HP, fuel-injected, aluminum block/heads, 4 valve/cylinder, quad overhead cam, dry-sump, twin-turbocharged motor that runs at 6500 RPM straight from Mercruiser. What automotive technology comes close? What factory automotive engines deliver 150 HP per liter?

Fuel injection has been available as an option on marine motors with more than 4 cylinders for over 20 years. No reason for a V6 or V8 boat less than 20 years old to be carbed unless the original buyer (and any used buyers) wanted it that way. A little shopping would easily supply an equivalent boat with a higher-tech motor.

You think the manufacturers force people to buy carbs? People are buying a toy, they're basically throwing their disposable income away when they buy a boat. Many people chose to keep as much of their money as possible by purchasing the cheapest toy option that meets their needs. $3,000 or $4,000 may not mean much to you, but to many people it can be the difference between owning a boat or not.

I just can't see the cost being that much more to use composite materials.

Maybe you should price some. You do know that fiberglass is a composite? Do you think manufacturers would use wood if it was cheaper just to build up an extra 60 or 70 layers of fiberglass?

Dragonplate composites is about the cheapest high-performance composites you'll find. A 1/4 sheet of plywood at Home Depot costs less than $10. The same size sheet of 3mm carbon fiber is over $700.

They could call it the "Never Rot" package!

I can think of about half a dozen manufacturers off the top of my head that do exactly what you're saying. Their boats aren't cheap. It all comes down to cost. You get what you pay for.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

You guys all (except for the ones that know) need to understand how the boating industry works. Read my signature.

For the last 2 millenium, up until about the 1950's when fiberglass boats starting becoming mainstream, you could not afford a boat unless you were rich or very, very well to do. Middle income, middle class folks could not own a boat, to much money. In todays money, and in 1900's (and pre) prices, you'd have to have an income of well, well over 100k a year just to have a putput boat. In todays age, with fiberglass hull costs, mass production, you can be middle class and if you have good credit still own a nice midsize boat. 50-75k a year is a nice income for somebody, but 60 years ago your income would have to be double that if you wanted to buy anything more than a tinny.

Boat manufactors build boats, and that's all they build is boats (except for Brunswick/Mercury marine) but Merc in the boat building process is a relatively new thing (last 10 years)

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

You can go out today and buy a 1350 HP, fuel-injected, aluminum block/heads, 4 valve/cylinder, quad overhead cam, dry-sump, twin-turbocharged motor that runs at 6500 RPM straight from Mercruiser. What automotive technology comes close?

444cid Windsor based Ford. 1900hp. Built for NMRA true Street. Must be able to complete a 30 mile cruise and run 3 back to back runs with out opening the hood. it's in my garage...old school block with latest in Turbos and stand alone DFI. I could drive this to the grocery store if I felt like it. This was built in a home garage. Everything except paint was done in house. Including the NHRA certified (to7.50's in the quarter) roll cage.+

 

[QC]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

45Auto's point I think was more about production type stuff. I think it is clear you can get hi tech marine stuff. Rotax (BRP) makes 255 bhp out of a 1.5 liter 3 cylinder, 4 stroke as another example:

Engine Type 1503 HO

• 4-stroke
• 3 cylinder
• 12 valves
• 188 kW / 255 HP
• 1493.8 ccm
• External intercooler
• 2 water cooling circuits (one closed water cooling circuit)
• Dry sump lubrication
• 2 oil pumps with replaceable paper oil filter
• Mechanically driven supercharger

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

444cid Windsor based Ford. 1900hp. Built for NMRA true Street. Must be able to complete a 30 mile cruise and run 3 back to back runs with out opening the hood. it's in my garage...old school block with latest in Turbos and stand alone DFI. I could drive this to the grocery store if I felt like it. This was built in a home garage.

You really consider this to be a factory built consumer engine? Something built in a garage that has to last for 30 miles of part throttle operation? How many seconds (not even going to be close to minutes, much less hours) do you think it would last under continuous WOT operation? You willing to give it to anyone off the street to drive for thousands of miles at full throttle and replace it at your cost every time they blow it up within a year, like Mercruiser will?

Why did you have to build it in a garage? Why didn't you just buy one in the car you wanted from the manufacturer? Sorry, I can't recall seeing many lately at my local Ford dealer (I can order the Mercruiser from any dealer out there) - why can't car manufacturer's get with the times? (HINT - think "cost" and "profit").

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

You really consider this to be a factory built consumer engine? Something built in a garage that has to last for 30 miles of part throttle operation? How many seconds (not even going to be close to minutes, much less hours) do you think it would last under continuous WOT operation? You willing to give it to anyone off the street to drive for thousands of miles at full throttle and replace it at your cost every time they blow it up within a year, like Mercruiser will?

Why did you have to build it in a garage? Why didn't you just buy one in the car you wanted from the manufacturer? Sorry, I can't recall seeing many lately at my local Ford dealer (I can order the Mercruiser from any dealer out there) - why can't car manufacturer's get with the times? (HINT - think "cost" and "profit").

no no no...i didn't post that as what i want to see from a manufacture. The point is if we can build this and tune this in a home garage why can't the marine industry get intyo more modern technology. I'm in NO way saying i want Mercruiser or crusader build 2000hp twin turbo engines for the average consumer....come on.

Back when the big three went to compouter controlled vehicles the hot rodders and car guys cried about it being the end of modifying factory cars. Guess what ..it didn't. Thats what the majority of you guys sound like. If you all are ok with being stuck with old tech and paying top dollar for it then so be it.

 

[QC]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Carbs are sold in the marine industry to allow an upcharge for electronics and to have a low cost to entry product. Nobody that truly understands this issue wants a carb . . . We buy the exact same ECU (Mototron) from Woodward that Mercruiser uses. It costs us $475, that does not include software, the wiring harness, injectors or any other hi tech pieces like coil on plugs etc. That stuff isn't free, but you can get it from major manufacturers . . . So I guess I still don't see the problem. Due to low volumes, higher emission levels and reduced expectations from consumers, older technology remains available longer in off-highway applications. Doesn't matter if it's a marine engine, or a weed eater or a small tractor.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I know the answer to this is a result of product development and supply and demand but ...
...I guess I'm just saying that if demand was as high for boats as it is for cars we would see a vast difference in design features in boats. My lawn mower, weed whacker, snow blower, etc... are all next to new and are all carbed.

Due to low volumes, higher emission levels and reduced expectations from consumers, older technology remains available longer in off-highway applications. Doesn't matter if it's a marine engine, or a weed eater or a small tractor.

I think this pretty much sums up the original posters questions. But please let the debating continue, I'm enjoying this thread and I don't quite know why!!

 

[NSBCraig]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Just catching the end of this one -

Have you look at Ilmor motors?

Also new Mercs use fuel injection (have for years) and fly by wire controls.

There are options out there it's just a matter of if you want to pay for them.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Maybe you should price some. You do know that fiberglass is a composite? Do you think manufacturers would use wood if it was cheaper just to build up an extra 60 or 70 layers of fiberglass?

Dragonplate composites is about the cheapest high-performance composites you'll find. A 1/4 sheet of plywood at Home Depot costs less than $10. The same size sheet of 3mm carbon fiber is over $700.

I can think of about half a dozen manufacturers off the top of my head that do exactly what you're saying. Their boats aren't cheap. It all comes down to cost. You get what you pay for.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I have NO PROBLEM with fiberglass hulls as they are. They don't use wood for 90% of the hull area. The composite material I'm talking about is strictly where they use wood, which is the transom and the stringers. The composite material isn't made up of layers of carbon fiber, it's a fiberglass/resin compound (think SeaCast, which yes I have priced and used to rebuild my transom - less than $1K). Cobalt basically has a pre-molded block of this composite material which is glassed in just like the wood, only it won't rot/leak, can be drilled and tapped like wood, and is much stronger structuraly. I would estimate that for the transom/stringers, a boat manufacturer could use composite materials in a 20' runabout for probably less than $1K increase in cost over using wood.

Like I said, I redid my entire transom with SeaCast for less than $1K and that was paying retail pricing with a good amount of excess left over. Surely a boat manufacturer could get wholesale pricing and have minimum waste. Granted, companies like Cobalt can charge a premium on their boats to cover the cost, but it can't be that much more work to use composites over using plywood once you have the process down.

 

[seabob4]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Proline hasn't used wood in their hulls or decks since 1996...

 

[perchin]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I have NO PROBLEM with fiberglass hulls as they are. They don't use wood for 90% of the hull area. The composite material I'm talking about is strictly where they use wood, which is the transom and the stringers. The composite material isn't made up of layers of carbon fiber, it's a fiberglass/resin compound (think SeaCast, which yes I have priced and used to rebuild my transom - less than $1K). Cobalt basically has a pre-molded block of this composite material which is glassed in just like the wood, only it won't rot/leak, can be drilled and tapped like wood, and is much stronger structuraly. I would estimate that for the transom/stringers, a boat manufacturer could use composite materials in a 20' runabout for probably less than $1K increase in cost over using wood.

Like I said, I redid my entire transom with SeaCast for less than $1K and that was paying retail pricing with a good amount of excess left over. Surely a boat manufacturer could get wholesale pricing and have minimum waste. Granted, companies like Cobalt can charge a premium on their boats to cover the cost, but it can't be that much more work to use composites over using plywood once you have the process down.

I completely agree!!!

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

From what I understand the newest high tech material for stringers and what not is wood that has had resin pressed into it and then coating the outside. I can't remember the entire reasoning, but apparently most manuf. that switched to no wood realized that wood does indeed have some benefits and this is the new method.

Of course, I'm just kind of generalizing, but there you go.

 

[witenite0560]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I think it's a combination of simple economics and user preferences.
1. Wood is indeed much cheaper than some of the other materials mentioned. It may not seem to an individual that the difference in cost between a slab of 3/4" plywood and a slab of equal dimension of some composite is significant. But, the individual is only buying one, the manufacturer is buying thousands and also the shipping costs. (Remember, many of the composites are heavier than wood, those that are lighter are just plain expensive.) The manufacturer is trying to hold his cost down so he can sell more boats at a reasonable profit margin. Wood works great and when properly encapsulated and maintained will last the life of the rest of the fiberglas hull. True, if allowed to remain wet, it'll rot. But, the same can be said of any metal structural member, too. Corrosion is still rot, in a manner of speaking.
2. The manufacturer knows that the majority of boat owners do much of their own maintenance. A lot of folks wouldn't buy a boat that they have to take to the dealer for every relatively minor maintenance task.
Please don't take this as me dissin' those folks who have to have the carbon graphite transom and souped up Ferrari engine. That's their prerogative, if they want to pay for it.

 

[maharg]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

When I was talking to my a boat mechanic about buying a new boat (glasstron specifically) he said that the composite boats typically get stress cracks in the gelcoat. Its nothing that will harm the structure, but he said to match the woods strength with composite will give you less flex resulting in more cracks. I still have not ruled these out, when I purchase a new one, but I will be doing some serious research.

 

[jkust]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

When I was talking to my a boat mechanic about buying a new boat (glasstron specifically) he said that the composite boats typically get stress cracks in the gelcoat. Its nothing that will harm the structure, but he said to match the woods strength with composite will give you less flex resulting in more cracks. I still have not ruled these out, when I purchase a new one, but I will be doing some serious research.

He's thinking of any VEC technology boat. I consider VEC boats different than a composite manufacutured boat. Created in two pieces from a mold. There have been a share of threads of people's new vec boats cracking.

So someone above mentioned the no wood construction boats are heavier not lighter than a comparable wood encased boat. I always thought they were lighter. The reason one of my boats is one of/is the heaviest 18 footers produced...it has some wood. I could be wrong but I assume the purpose of composite is to be as strong but lighter.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

now THIS has been a comical thread... lol

the marine industry is VERY up to date... If you don't think so go to a MAJOR dealer and tell him you want to order a new boat with the best of the best....

As was mentioned earlier, the reason for the prices on boats are because they are not main stream but rather are a luxury.... most people shopping for new boats don't even ASK the price of the boat out the door... all they want to know is "what is the monthly payment?" and they judge between similar $40,000 boats by the color of the guages, the $200 stereo speakers and the $400 plastic cooler under the back seat.... They are usually not educated about the things that actually effect the cost, performance, or longevity of the boat..... All things mass produced are directly aimed for the average consumer.

Example, I am 6'4" tall and I'm uncomfortable in most cars/trucks. My old man has a cadillac seville sts... If I ride somewhere with the folks and sit in the back my head hits the ceiling...... I often smack my head on the ceiling going up and down stairs at other people's houses.... I can't stand upright in the cabin of my 28' wellcraft cruiser.....

NONE of this matters in the least to the folks that design cars, houses, and boats because most adult men are under 6' tall and women shorter..... when you are out to make every dollar you can then you make the masses just happy enough to pry the money out of their wallet and you MIGHT offer to customize at extreme cost for the fringe market. IE a $10,000 engine upgrade