Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

[NMShooter]

I've been surprised by a few things about boats....

1) Why the heck they don't have air filters. How much more could that possible cost?

2) I'm amazed that there are not more fuel injected motors through the 90's early 2000's.

I've been shopping used boats... late 90's, early 2000. Trying to stick to Volvo power, as I have heard that the outdrives are much easier to work on.

In looking at these boats, almost all of them are carb'd. Is it that much more expensive to put together a FI engine?

 

[kfa4303]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

I think you'll find that it's a combo of cost and reliability. Carbs can be a pain, but can be fixed by most mortals, whereas EFI systems are all black boxes, witchcraft and magic, which I find causes most folks to be a bit hesitant. Plus, when and if it breaks, and it will, the cost of repair is usually much higher than getting a new carb kit, or new carb for that matter. No air filters on boat motors, generally speaking, because there isn't any dust/dirt on the water to filter in the first place. Adding a filter would only add to the cost and may actually diminish air flow slightly. I'm sure the big fancy power boats have some sort of air filter, but most regular boats never have and never will. You might find a screen, or something over the carb throat to keep large debris out, but that's usually about it.

 

[r.j.dawg]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

EFI systems are all black boxes, witchcraft and magic.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Boats come with a flame arrester. it is intended to stop a flame front from escaping in the event of an engine backfire. some air filters such as airsep and some K&N are a flame arrester that is also a filter. However like stated, there generally isnt any dirt on the water. And in most cases, the boat motor will be murdered by neglect and improper winterization well before it would ever dust out.

EFI adds cost to the driveline that the price conscious buyer doesnt want to pay (95% of boat buyers). it costs the manufacturers about an extra $1k in components, labor, etc. which they in turn will charge you an extra $2k+ for the purchased price (Material cost + labor + overhead while maintaining margin). Also, the emissions for boats has been fairly lax, so without compliance issues or consumer demand, there really has been no driving force for EFI in boats until recently when the emissions standards are becoming more strict.

Both Carbs and EFI require the same level of maintenance

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Only in the board room's will the real truth be known. What is known that most mfg's purchase large quanity's from GM and other's...We also know that these engines do not have the std fuel inection that comes on all cars simply because of OS sensors. They (OS sensors) do not survive in a marine enviroment..they get wet and fail which renders the system broken. So one needs to alter the system and alterations cost money..big money. Or you can simply bolt on a carb and viola it works..no EPA or Cafe stds extremely reliable cost effective.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

both require pretty much the same effort to work on. I will suggest though that V.P. drives don't break down or need major repairs as often, the flip side of that is they cost more to repair when they do break.

I'll also add that most break-downs and repairs are due to OWNER neglect and poor, or NO maintenance!

They break due to that!!

 

[Tahorover]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Only in the board room's will the real truth be known. What is known that most mfg's purchase large quanity's from GM and other's...We also know that these engines do not have the std fuel inection that comes on all cars simply because of OS sensors. They (OS sensors) do not survive in a marine enviroment..they get wet and fail which renders the system broken. So one needs to alter the system and alterations cost money..big money. Or you can simply bolt on a carb and viola it works..no EPA or Cafe stds extremely reliable cost effective.

It is not the o2 sensor getting wet, the combustion of gasoline creates water in cars and boats. o2 sensors need heat to read correctly, early one even had heaters! Marne exhaust was too cool for the o2 sensor to read the mixture correctly.

 

[E4ODnut]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Good answers and good points, but I have to disagree with a couple of them.

Bubba 1235. I agree that probably the majority of gas powered boats have planing hulls and generally cruise at relatively high loads. But, there are a fair nummber of displacement and semi-displacement boats with gas engines that normally cruise under relatively light loads. It's not correct to blanket all boats as operating under the same conditions. For instance, I prefer to cruise my boat at ~2000 RPM, ~ 15" manifold vacuum. That's a pretty light load in my opinion. EFI can offer significant fuel savings under relatively light loads due to the finer control it has over fuel mix and ignition timing.

Tailgunner. I'm assuming you are talking about the Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor. First of all the O2 sensor is not required to run an EFI system in open loop. It is almost essential for initial tuning, but once the maps are firmed it is no longer required. I don't think that any, other than perhaps the latest OEM marine systems require the sensor. Having said that, if you want to have EGO feed back the sensor is not a problem. The exhaust is dry before it exits the riser. Mine have been working just fine.

As to why EFI hasn't been used earlier I don't know for sure but I can speculate. It's all about money.

EFI does a better job of engine management than a conventional carburetor and distributor can do, no question about it. It is my belief that the automotive industry was forced to adopt it because of emissions concerns, not so in marine until just recently, and not to the same extent as road vehicles, but it's coming. Initial development is expensive, but the initial development has already done for the automotive industry. The cost of an EFI system is higher than conventional carb and distributor, but not significantly. However, when you are looking at thousands of units, the costs add up.

The only thing that is important to the manufacturer is profit and they will naturally take the path of least resistance to achieve it. It's just the nature of business, and human beings, for that matter.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

The only thing that is important to the manufacturer is profit and they will naturally take the path of least resistance to achieve it. It's just the nature of business, and human beings, for that matter.

It's not really the only thing driving this though.

The EPA, CARB and other govt organizations are also a major factor. They will force all larger marine engines to controlled by ECM's and that will require EFI.

It's pretty much already happened.

As to why EFI hasn't been used earlier I don't know for sure but I can speculate. It's all about money.

It is absolutely about money! But now there's no choice....and now the cost just gets passed on... to us, of course.....

 

[NMShooter]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Thanks for the comments. All good perspective.

I have an old outboard now, and it has been needing some attention on land before I take it to the lake... necessitating me to run it here at my house. In the desert. During a windy spring I'm trying to not run it when the wind is blowing, and alsways wishing that I had an air filter on it. Even on the water, there is particulate matter, bugs included, that get sucked into the intake. No filtration at all. Still, the motor is 25 years old and still has 115+psi on each jug, so maybe I am worrying for nothing.

My interest in fuel injection is that I boat at a lot of different elevations. Once a year below 1000 feet, and then from 4000 to 9000 feet. Sure would be nice to have a computer adjust the mixture for me and not have to worry about it.

I've read that the Volvo outdrive bellows are much easier to replace than merc, same with the impellors. Not true?

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: Why has there not been more of a move to fuel injection sooner?

Merc alpha units are in the foot (requiring removal of foot), where both the VP and Merc Bravo units use a seawater pump

merc parts are less expensive than Volvo generally speaking

both are man made, both will require maintenance, both fail without maintenance

I have replaced both Merc and Volvo bellows. once you do them a few times, both are fairly straight forward.

Thanks for the comments. All good perspective.

I have an old outboard now, and it has been needing some attention on land before I take it to the lake... necessitating me to run it here at my house. In the desert. During a windy spring I'm trying to not run it when the wind is blowing, and alsways wishing that I had an air filter on it. Even on the water, there is particulate matter, bugs included, that get sucked into the intake. No filtration at all. Still, the motor is 25 years old and still has 115+psi on each jug, so maybe I am worrying for nothing.

My interest in fuel injection is that I boat at a lot of different elevations. Once a year below 1000 feet, and then from 4000 to 9000 feet. Sure would be nice to have a computer adjust the mixture for me and not have to worry about it.

I've read that the Volvo outdrive bellows are much easier to replace than merc, same with the impellors. Not true?