why I still prefer gauges in my cars

jlh3rd

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That analog gauge is just a digital readout. Many modern engines replaced the thermostat with a coolant control valve which is usually buried
not my '08.
it's a real analog gauge. So is the thermostat, no electrical connection at the housing either.
10 minute job not counting refilling the system.
 

matt167

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not my '08.
it's a real analog gauge. So is the thermostat, no electrical connection at the housing either.
10 minute job not counting refilling the system.
It might have a needle and look like a gauge.. but it is a digital gauge. It is not directly connected to the sender. It connects to the ECM and is driven by a stepper motor through a digital interface that uses logic.. there is an actual temp range that will cause it to read dead center of the gauge.. and yes that engine still uses a thermostat but they are fading away.

FWIW I daily drive a ‘12 Sierra 1500 and also work as a GM technician so I’m very familiar. I don’t deal with anything older than GMT 900 in general but still do some with the 900’s
 

Lpgc

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It might have a needle and look like a gauge.. but it is a digital gauge. It is not directly connected to the sender. It connects to the ECM and is driven by a stepper motor through a digital interface that uses logic.. there is an actual temp range that will cause it to read dead center of the gauge.. and yes that engine still uses a thermostat but they are fading away.

FWIW I daily drive a ‘12 Sierra 1500 and also work as a GM technician so I’m very familiar. I don’t deal with anything older than GMT 900 in general but still do some with the 900’s

I was going to say much the same about temp gauges pointing where the ECU makes them point rather than pointing to actual temp on a lot of vehicles.

On a lot of modern vehicles the temp gauge will point to absolutely 'normal' temp shortly after engine start when the engine is still warming up from around 38C 100F and still be pointing to absolutely 'normal' temp if the engine gets up to 105C 220F.

On some modern vehicles the temp gauge does point to actual temperature but on most it works like we said.

I would much rather have an old skool proper temp gauge connected directly to the temp sensor than the type that has the ECU sitting in the middle telling the gauge where to point, too often when the ECU decides to let the driver know temp is unusually hot it's too late to prevent a worse overheating problem. Can't use such gauges to know there's a developing problem, it tells you after there is a problem.

I believe manufacturers started having the ECU tell the temp gauge where to point because consumers like to think their engine is quick to warm up then maintains exact normal temp regardless of conditions. Over here a lot of cars are front wheel drive so have electric cooling fans, the thermostat might be set to 85C 185F but the electric radiator fan won't come on until coolant temp is 105C 220F, to some drivers it would be alarming seeing the temp gauge point to normal while actually driving/moving but slowly climb to 220F if stood at traffic lights not moving for a while before slowly coming down again when the fan kicks in. If one manufacturer puts the ECU between sender and gauge and programs the gauge to point to normal at such a wide range of actual temps it could give consumers the idea they make the best engines unless other manufacturers follow suit.

My daily driver is a Nissan Elgrand JDM import with the VQ35 engine, I can start that on a freezing winter morning and within about 3 minutes the gauge is pointing to abosultely normal temperature but you can tell it's not really up to temp because the heater still doesn't blow as hot as it would if it were really up to temp and if I read coolant temp using OBD live data it's still only around 100F at that point. I've done a lot of work on the same model car and know the gauge will continue to point to normal until coolant temp is around 110C 230F, then it will start to read only slightly above normal., any hotter than that and the gauge will suddenly move to the far right but it's probably too late to try to start nursing it even if the gauge moves slightly further round than normal. My missus still has the same old car I bought her to learn to drive in, an old 2002 Vauxhall (GM), that does have a gauge that points to actual temp and it is a much more useful gauge. Start that up on the same winter morning and drive it around for the same 3 minutes and the gauge still hasn't started to move from the far left cold position, it reads 85C 185F in normal use but will go up to 95C 203F if parked up with the engine running before the fan kicks in..

My son's BMW doesn't have a coolant temp gauge on the dash (you can see a reading going through hidden menus), it does have an oil temp gauge on the dash. I used to like a full sets of gauges on old cars... coolant temp (with no ECU in the middle), oil pressure, oil temp, ammeter. Daughter's car recently had a failed oil pump, she was lucky it failed when she came to start it rather than fail while she was out on the road, there can't have been any oil pressur because I found the oil pump had broken up but if you started it the oil pressure light wouldn't come on for about 5 seconds after starting. I changed the oil pump on it for her and fitted a timing chain kit and water pump while I was at it, might as well on that engine because they're all consumables that are known to fail and all have to be removed during changing the oil pump anyway, front cover and all the timing stuff off plus the sump off. Pita doing it on her driveway.
 

jlh3rd

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I know of stepper motors. I have not pulled my '08's panel, and I'm sure it receives a "digital "signal . But , after start up, my gauge climbs slowly, and I mean slowly, until it gets to the 210 F mark....which is the center. Just like my '77 monte did. The needle settles down at a "fixed" point once the thermostat begins it's cycling. No difference, '77..., my '08. True analog or digital signal, in my particular case, show the same action.
And , for the first time 3days ago, the '08's needle climbed between the 210 and 260 mark...slowly....and retreated slowly back to the 210.
Furthermore, the initial sign of an issue was when this gauge showed a temp slightly below the 210 mark...for the first time since 2008.
Obviously the ECM sends a temp signal, that's why my scanner picks it up, but the ECM is not controlling the temp, the thermostat is...and the gauge reflects the temp. variations....just like an analog gauge, regardless of stepper motor driven or not.
I know this truck....

and I'll see what happens on my pull to the lake today with the new thermostat.
 

Lpgc

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Jun 17, 2023
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I don't know much about your truck, the temp gauge on the dash may be accurate or biased, from what you've said it seems likely it is accurate.

It isn't completely analogue with the temp gauge wired to te temp sender versus digital with the sender wired to the ECU and ECU telling the gauge where to point that makes the difference... It's more like analogue doesn't give much opportunity for manufacturers to program in any bias for the gauge but digital does if they so wish.

OBD live data always shows the actual coolant temperature, can compare temp reading from live data to the temp gauge on the dash to see if the dash gauge is accurate or biased to point to normal.

Even my missus old car has a digital setup but it seems the manufacturer didn't set the gauge up to have any bias, the gauge always points to the same reading I get from OBD. My car has a digital setup, the dash gauge definitely does have bias, during engine warm-up the gauge points to normal temp even when OBD says coolant it still only 40C 104F.

My car has the 3.5 engine and a thermoviscous fan, they also made a 2.5 version that had an electric fan. Radiators fail more often on the 2.5 than on the 3.5, I believe that's because of the different types of cooling fan... The thermoviscous is running all the time, the electric fan only cuts in when coolant temp reaches around 100C 212F... Go for a drive on a hot day and the coolant temp gets up to 85C 185F then park up with the engine running and the 3.5's coolant will stay close to 85C 185F the whole time, the 2.5 will stay at 85C while driving but will reach at least 100C 212F before the fan kicks in running in slow mode at which point the temp might start coming back down or may increase further to 105C or 110C before the fan kicks in on high speed. I have a theory that the temp and pressure swings of the 2.5 cause extra stress and fatigue where the top plastic header of the radiator connects to the aluminium core, the 2.5's seem prone to failures there while the 3.5s tend to be more reliable and last longer. I wouldn't own a 2.5 version but if I did I'd probably swap the electric fan setup to the 3.5's thermoviscous setup.
 

jlh3rd

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so the pull up to the lake showed my normal indication as when new and before the gauge "told" me there might be an issue.
It was the thermostat.
I tested the old one and it didn't show obvious failure, wasn't sticking and opened and closed...seemed maybe slower in responding....dunno.
It's back to normal now.
being 18 years and over 100,000 miles, maybe it was just tired😉
anyway, I like gauges....and I wasn't stranded at the side of the road with a 24' pontoon.
 
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