Winter refit - transom

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Had dinner with a friend, so no work last night.

I did get my new fiberglass roll in, and discovered something.

I mentioned above I paid about $4.90 per yard. That's pretty good, really... but apparently there was a typo in the ad or I didn't read enough.

I paid $350 (including shipping) for a 67 yard 50 inch roll of DB1200 (I may have said 1700 above) which would give me a price of about $5.22 a yard.

Which would have been pretty good considering the stuff is about $10 a yard retail... but instead of 67 yards I got a 500 foot roll - 167 yards.

That means I got the stuff for $2.10 a yard... really cheap, cheaper than mat costs at retail by a lot.

That also means I have about 100 yards more than I intended.. so while I normally avoid saying "this is the last glass or resin I'll buy for this project" I feel pretty confident in saying "this is the last glass I'll buy for this project".

Erik

PS: Now I just have to figure out how to take some off the roll... that sucker is too heavy to move around much.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, after spending a lot of yesterday thinking, I decided that the plan I had laid out for the seats was too complicated and hard to do well. So I switched to a simple setup of deck supports per standard, and I'm going to put the seats on top of the deck like a normal person

I did make a storage spot for a T cylinder where I was going to put under-seat storage.. I need a big O2 supply sometimes for diving. Basically the cylinder will lay under a hatch in holes cut in the deck supports a couple inches above the hull. With that hole, the deck supports are pretty weak, so I'll reinforce that area a bit with some 2 inch high laminations on either side. Also, having the deck itself glassed in there will help some.

Here's a pic of all my templated deck supports in place and tacked.. I'll fillet and glass them in tonight.

The work looks kinda messy since the old stringers are still part black, with red filler in places, etc. So I finally got some bilge paint (Sherwin Williams pre-cat pro high build epoxy) and I'll be making them more uniform soon

Once these supports are in place I have the #1 bulkhead to glass in (laminated side 2 of that last night) against the hull and anchor locker and a little bit of work on the transom hole. Also I need to put in two deck supports aft. That's it, after that I'm working on the new deck.

The deck will be 1/2" plywood glassed on both sides with DB1200 since I have a ton of it. I'll be reinforcing/stiffening the deck with cast fiberglass channel I've made where needed. So far I've got spots laid out to place 6 hatches, so I'll be making a lot of hatch gutters and such.

This is a lot of biax, 100lb roll:

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

No pics today, but another update. I had a busy weekend with the holiday, but I did get quite a bit done on the boat.

I'm about out of resin again - that's a new record for me, about 7 gallons of epoxy used in two weeks. Total work done includes #1 bulkhead lamination (4x) #2 laminate and install, forward stringers putty and install, 10x deck supports install, and putty work on main stringer section and motor mounts.

In the same time period I used 20 yards of 50" 1708 cloth and about 10 of DB1200 cloth plus about 50 linear yards of DB1200 tape for tabbing.

Stringers, deck supports, and anything touching the hull are filleted with epoxy glue and tabbed in place with 3 layers of DB1200 tape or the equivalent. Some items are later covered with DB1200 fabric all over.

So, the interior structure is almost done. I even installed a half bulkhead which will form the aft face of the "step" to the higher deck area in the bow section, and that's really the first "visible" part of the deck to go in.

I'm ordering more epoxy today and starting work on the new side panels. I'm also going to start cutting some small deck sections from 1/2" plywood, and molding some hatch covers out of scrap cloth and poly resin.

It's looking a lot more like a boat now. Lots of fun.

Erik

 

[redfury]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Well, there's nary a project that meets it's deadline, so you are just like everyone else in that respect I figured I'd have my boat done by 2010...ha! Some conservative I am!

 

[sprintst]

Re: Winter refit - transom

It is looking more like a boat now...and a dam* solid one too. Nice diagramming of you work.

It will help for the thinking out phase of my next glass boat.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Thanks... of course, the thing with diagrams is that as you as you change your mind, you have to draw another one

But I've found it's really, really helped my project and progress having some sort of plan, even if I decide to change things later.

This is the part of the build that's really neat.. once I get the side panels on you'll be able to see the final lines of the boat... after that everything will seem like I'm just polishing things up...

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, time to update this thread. I've been a bit stalled because A) I'm almost out of epoxy and waiting on a new order and B) I've been trying to figure out what I'm going to do for my upper panels. I'd planned on just gluing a plywood core in place on the existing hull to form them then glassing over with epoxy and biax, then forming the gunwales, then fairing and painting.

There are a few issues with this, the main one being lack of epoxy and cost.. that's another $400 of epoxy. The second biggest issue is labor.. just getting the panels glassed with 22 foot long pieces of biax would take me and two friends most of one day. Then there's the fairing, which would take a few weeks, followed by completion of the interior structure and the rest of the work on the boat.

So after discussing it (with myself and a few experts) in this thread:
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?p=2578586

I've decided after waffling for a bit to take a mold off the hull with MDF, form cored panels in it with poly resin on the bench, then glue them to the hull with epoxy, plus overlapping glass layers inside and outside, and a little fairing of the joint. Poly is cheaper than epoxy for this, the mold will ensure a minimum of fairing of the panels is needed, I can do the panels in quarters when I have time instead of arranging for a gang of helpers.. basically it sound good at this point.

We'll see, and I'll take pictures of my progress.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, I thought I'd post an update since they've been sparse since my camera had its little "accident".

I'm getting the camera fixed, it may take a week though.

In the meantime I'm working on my new hull sides. I completed molding both sides, and I've now got them trimmed to very close to their final height over the rear 2/3 of the hull - the bow will wait a bit for now due to space limitations.

Yesterday I laid a couple pieces of 1/4" ply over the top edges of the rear sides and took an outline for each. I'll glue on a pair of "fence" pieces at the right spots with the right angles to make a U shaped, slightly curved mold for each side.

Some fairing with bondo and sandpaper and I should be ready to mold the gunwale tops. I'm going to make the tops tilt outward about 5 degrees off of horizontal to aid draining.

I'll lay them up with a core this time, 1/2" plywood in between at least 6 layers of biax cloth and mat. I'll still use poly because I have gallons left, and it's easier to mold new parts from than epoxy.

After I get those made I should be able to epoxy the parts onto the tops of my new sides using the outboard flange to attach them, thus forming gunwales for the last half of the sides. Then I can do the same for the gunwales forward of that, including the "ramp" where the height of the sides change near the bow.

I still need to pull a good mold for the transom... I started doing that before I trimmed the sides but realized I needed to use actual dimensions instead of estimates.

So basically right now I'm forming molds on the hull and removing them for fairing and forming of new parts. Once the gunwales and transom pieces are done and on, I'll be cleaning out the inside of the boat, grinding where needed on the new sides and in the bilges, then finishing the reinforcing glass, covering up any exposed wood, and then painting the bilge. Then it'll be time for the deck...

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Another quick update.

Last night I made the molds for the rear gunwales. Basically 1/4" plywood planks with a pair of 3 inch tall planks mounted to give a U shape about 8 feet long when upside down. The short planks are angled slightly off 90 so the sides of the gunwale will be parallel but when attached to the boat side panel the gunwales will be about 10 degrees off level, tilted outward to help drain. When finished this will give me a U channel 6" wide by 3" tall that's curved to match the hull side. I'll glue one leg of the U to the side of the boat.

I assembled them with an air brad nailer, then started to fair one mold with bondo before I realized I could have just used a few strips of packing tape, since this is a one use mold. Oh, well. Tonight I sand the molds to get the bondo in shape and tape the mold without bondo. Then it's 2 coats of wax, and if time permits PVA spray.

For layup I'm planning on 2 mat layers, cloth, mat, core, mat, cloth. The core will be pre-cut 1/2" plywood pieces about 6 inches long each, and I'll glue them in place with cabosil on both sides plus the resin in the mat. I'll be weighting the whole mess down with lead or something... I have a pretty good sized bucket of shot I can pour into containers.

Once I get the side molds done tonight I'll work on assembling a similar mold on the transom that extends a foot up the sides of the boat and covers the transom core from the top down about two feet. That plus the sides I'm molding will finish the stern half of the boat's hull work.

Pics soon.. parts are coming for one camera and I've gotten an old digital working too.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Finally, a few pics The old camera still works ok, it's just low res and doesn't hold many shots.

First, here's what the height of the new side panels looks like in the rear of the boat... basically the same height as the slightly trimmed transom core. I'll be molding a cover to go over the outside of the transom core that will extend up the sides to the new side panels and have a flange to attach a top section.

You can see I still have to cover all the wood in the aft section with glass and trim/extend the vertical "knees" on either side of the engine compartment.

The 2x4 block on the port aft side is the last remnant of the clamping system that held the side mold in place. It's going to get knocked off with a hammer soon, just before I grind the inside of the boat to clean things up.

The sides are about 1/4" thick for the most part, and 3/8" in places where sections overlapped... I cut glass for them in about 7-9 foot pieces, in three sections, overlapping where the pieces joined.

I haven't reinforced the sides yet (I'm going to overlap the inside with biax glass and once I get the top horizontal pieces attached I'll cover them and the new sides down to the first chine) but it won't easily break off while I work on it.

In this second pic you can see where the sheer line angles vertically about 5 inches higher in the middle of the boat. The aft section is horizontal from the transom to there, and forward of the height increase it will gradually get higher until it reaches the bow. Sort of like a sportfisher I guess. The main reason is to try to keep the bow from submarining in larger waves and to give a drier ride in heavy chop. The sheer is low in the back to permit folks to bend over the side and pick things out of the water or hand them to divers in the water.

The difference in color you see in the sides is because the near side was coated with Duratec primer as the first mold layer, which gave it a nice smooth black surface. The far side wasn't, and was much harder to release from the mold (should have waxed more). The splotches you see on the other (port) side are from pieces of MDF mold still clinging to the outside of the panel.

Now that the panels are trimmed to height I'm molding the top caps for the aft half of the boat. I took a couple scrap (big scrap) pieces of 1/4" ply and traced the outline of the sides on them:

(sideways pic, sorry)

Then I copied the angle of the sides at the top edge and added about 10 degrees outward tilt to get drainage. I cut a bunch (about a dozen) chunks of 2x4 into matching pairs of angles to attach the inner and outer edges to in a U shape:

You can see that they "lean" about 15-20 degrees to one side and curve slightly along their length. When done the molded parts should mount with one leg of the U against the side panel and the top should be level, with the other leg of the U parallel to the side.

Actually, thinking about it now I should have made the second leg vertical instead of parallel to the outside. Oh, well.. if it looks funny I can cut it off and mold something else I guess :\

(more....)

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Next step was wax with Partall, then spray PVA on the molds. I picked up a turbine based HVLP sprayer at harbor freight when they had it on clearance... only cost me $15 for the whole setup. It's too weak to spray any paint except very thin stuff, but it works perfectly for PVA. I even keep the cup full between uses and it blows out any dried liquid before I start spraying. Nice to have..

Here's the molds with wax and PVA on them. Last night they had cured enough for me to put on a layer of duratec primer... I didn't really need it but I wanted these to part easily and I will need to fair them before I glass over them... these molds have a few tape marks, staples, and dings that will transfer to the new parts.

The tape is gorilla tape... I did one side of one mold with bondo before I realized that they weren't going to be re-used or perfectly smooth anyway... why waste time fairing a one use mold? So I taped the corners to get the fillet shape I wanted and I'll sand 'em when they're out.

With a little luck I may mold the parts tonight... supposed to be cold out though, so I might have to use a heater, or wait.

I am going to try to get the transom mold done this weekend, get these sides molded, then start on the forward half of the boat... I have two short side caps to go over and ahead of the rise in sheer. I won't have these caps along the foredeck section, so there's about 6ish feet of mold to make for each side.


Erik

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Erik, it's not winter anymore and you're still refittin'!!!

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

I know, I know.... I'm the poster child for scope creep. Would you believe I started all this after deciding to finally take time and do my transom?

Now I'm trying to not get into a time crunch... I don't want to miss the whole summer, but it'll be done when it's done, I guess. I'm trying to do it right instead of super fast.

/sigh... trip to the bahamas in 2 weeks means more delays...

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Okay, I spent part of the weekend molding parts.

I didn't get as much done as I wanted to, but that's always the case.

I molded the gunwale tops for the new sides from about the middle of the hull on back using the molds I posted pics of above. I prepped the molds with Partall paste wax and PVA.

Layup was using polyester resin. I used layers as follows: Mat, cloth, mat, core, mat, cloth, mat.

The core was pieces of 1/2" plywood cut about two feet long and 3.5 inches wide. I used resin thickened with glass microbubbles to bed the core and over its top to ensure a good bond.

I also used an outer layer of duratec surfacing primer to ease mold release and give the part a nice black look I'll be doing some fairing on these before I glue them to the boat, and the duratec will make that easier.

Here's the layup of one of the sides, just after the core went in:

Sorry for the pic quality, it's still my old camera.

The white stuff you see on either side of the core is thickened resin squishing out from underneat the core. I scooped some of this up and also made more to cover over the top of the core, fill the gaps between pieces, etc.

The core was beveled on the top side with a router to avoid bubbling and keep the thickened resin to a minimum.

After finishing the layup I put a piece of dropcloth plastic over the whole thing and used a ridged roller to compact it all together and take care of some dry spots in the top cloth:

I left the plastic on while the resin kicked, along with a heater for a couple hours (it was about 45 degrees outside, and this is in my unheated garage).

The next day I pried the sides of the part away from the mold, lifted from the ends, and it came out with no trouble. The mold looks pretty good still:

The tape stayed in place and the PVA enabled a nice clean release. The flexibility of the plywood helped some too.

I put the two molded sides outside on my boat trailer to sit in the sun for a day. That should nicely complete the curing of them. Here's one of them sitting on its mold on top of the trailer. You can see it still looks like the black tape is in place, but that's just the duratec color with a smooth surface where the tape was.

The short pieces you see next to the side pieces above are some deck support angles I created at the same time. Here's a pic of those in the mold:

Basically I took a 3 foot tall 4 inch vinyl fence post and cut it at two opposite corners. I put a layer of mat, cloth, and mat in, then sections of CoreCell that I had around, cut so they formed a triangular cross section. I ran out before I finished both molds so the foreground mold doesn't have foam all the way across.

I covered over the foam with another couple layers.

Once they're hard I'll trim them, then cut angle pieces about 3 inches wide from each part, and epoxy them in place to support the deck or anywhere else I need a right angle support. I'll also glass the deck in place, of course.

Next up is the transom mold.. but tonight I'm going to try to finish the compressor first. I am really going to need that for the fairing of the hull.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

One more pic - here's another view of the part on the trailer. I realized I didn't get a pic with the whole profile of the parts showing.

In this pic the left side of the part is actually the top of the new gunwale, and the right side is going to be the inside of the gunwale once trimmed. You can just barely see in the pic that the part curves toward that surface to match the hull panel curve.

The outside surface of the new gunwale is underneath the part as it sits in this pic, so you can't see it. That side is what will be glued to the hull panels.

Got a bit of fairing to do, don't I?

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Tired last night, so not much got done. I bought the copper fittings and tube for the compressor, got to sweat them together tonight.

I got my camera fixed today too, so future pics should be a bit clearer

The newly molded parts are sitting outside.. the rain is cleaning off the PVA film left on them, and I'm pretty sure the weekend's sun finished the cure. Now if the temps around here would just get above 50...

Erik

 

[tinkeringwackyone]

Re: Winter refit - transom

looking great erik, your progress is going along faster than mine so no worries, I still don't have my trailer done yet so I can get the boat back on it. hopefully tonight that will happen. keep up the good work.....tink

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Phew... no updates from me in a month.

I'd love to say I've made a ton of progress, but I've been dividing my time between working on things in the garage and cleaning out the winter's worth of wood/fiberglass scraps from my basement.

I got rid of half an old boat (rest to go soon), cleaned and sorted my entire double garage, moved my torsion box table from the basement to garage, moved my table saw out, cleaned some of the sawdust up, moved my vacuum bagging gear out, got rid of a spare hard top and an old windshield, and generally cleaned up. I also have been working to insulate my basement shop, getting ready to dig into place an egress window, doing lawn care, and keeping up with the fast approaching scuba dive season. Oh, and I spent a week in the Bahamas.

I also trimmed my molded gunwales and have them ready to mount in the boat... perfect fit curve wise, and they're level and nice and solid. Next up is the transom mold and the forward gunwale molds plus the foredeck, the last of the structural work inside, and then the deck... then the boat goes outside for the rest of the work (mechanicals, engine, bow mold, painting, etc)

I also picked up a bunch of used parts to help my engine out... new carb, intake, coupler, and fuel pump...so I won't be using any old parts from my 305 engine soon.

Basically, everything is good with the boat except the fact that it's not done yet

Erik

 

[redfury]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Wish I could say the same, but all the plans I make for my summer, the wife makes more plans that I have time for, so priorities change and the boat is on hold until I can acquire more resin and glass. I could have had the deck in and done by now if I had the time and $$. Oh well, I've gone fishing more this year already than I had all of last year, so there's something to say right there ( yeah, quit fishing and get working on the boat! )

 

[jonesg]

Re: Winter refit - transom

Just curious why you didn't splash some gelcoat as the first layer in the mold.
Its a lot easier putting it in a mold than trying to apply it to a finished part later on.

I can see fairing the new sides to the original hull exterior will be work,
I'd put a trim line there and call it a draw.

Dark paint conceals all.