Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

[dvan1901]

Ok, So I've seen a post or two on using anti-freeze and not using for corrosion protection. My question is this, I've read where people do this with the boat on muffs and I guess I can't quite visualize it. Do they just put the anti-freeze mixture in a bucket and run the muffs from the outdrive to the bucket? Second part of my question is; what about the water that comes out after it has been cycled through? Aren't they just dumping anti-freeze laced water out on the ground? Sorry if these are dump questions - just can't vizualize what is happening...

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

Since I was one of the people that wrote about using antifreeze for corrosion protection, I figured I'd chime in here.

I run the motor for about 10 minutes attached to the muffs with water running through them to warm up the motor. I shut off the motor, then I drain the motor and exhaust manifold.

I use a 4' section of garden hose with a male end on one side and a big funnel on the other. I put the lower unit into a half barrel to catch the run-off once it cycles through.

(You need a helper for the next part). Attach the funnel hose to the muffs. Hold it up high, start the motor and pour in straight antifreeze with the motor idling until you start to see green come out into the barrel. Continue until the gallon is gone and shut off the motor right away. Let the antifreeze continue to drain from the motor for about 5 minutes.

Pour the excess from the barrel into the jug again. Run it through a paint strainer if there's debris in it.

Replace the barrel under the drive again. Go inside the boat and drain the motor and manifold again (along with any other drains you may have).

Then I remove the thermostat hoses and thermostat, pour antifreeze in the block through there. I do the same with my raw water pump (I have a VP with the external pump), and pull the exhaust hose and pour antifreeze in there too. Put it all back together and you should be good to go.

I use straight (unmixed) lo-tox antifreeze. I figure that during step one running it through the muffs, it's picking up about 50% water which is the proper mix for H2o and antifreeze. Everything that ends up in the barrel is then properly mixed for use during the remaining steps.

This isn't exactly scientific, but it has worked for me for 15 years. I've never had a single winter-related problem or corrosion problem. The temps get to -20 at times during the winter, and I feel the antifreeze is the way to go.

Chuck

 

[dvan1901]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

So this is the part I don't get I guess. When you are pouring anti-freeze in the funnel and through the muffs, there isn't any water going through the muffs right; just straight anti-freeze? In that last step, when you drain the manifolds and engine again, isn't that just draining out pure anti-freeze at that point (i.e. what went through the funnel)?

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

Yes, it's putting straight antifreeze through the system. The impeller will be fine as long as there's liquid going through (plus antifreeze has enough lubrication to not harm the pump). Theoreticaly, there will be close to a gallon of fresh water in the block when you start to pour in the straight antifreeze. The proper ratio of antifreeze to water is 50/50. So a gallon of antifreeze mixed with a gallon if water should yield an almost perfect mixture.

Yes, most of it pours out, but at least you have peace of mind that the corrosion protection of the antifreeze has coated everything internally. Also, every nook and cranny that can't be totally drained will at least have some amount of freeze protection.

Overall, I sleep better at night during the winter knowing that I spent the extra $7.00 and time doing this. I hate suprises.

Chuck

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

Chuck, There is a much easier and more reliable way to introduce the antifreeze. After the block and manifolds are drained of water, pour some straight A-F into the raw water intake hose where it connects to the thermostat housing. The A-F will push out the residual water thru the waterpump. When you see the color of the A-F come out the water intake on the outdrive, you have purged all the water. Now pour some A-F into the large recirculating hose on the waterpump. It will push the residual water out of the block drains. when you see the color of the A-F, install the drain plugs and fill the block with A-F. Now repeat process for each Manifold, using the manifold water hoses on the thermostat cover.

When you are done, the entire block and manifolds will be filled with straight antifreeze, and the raw water intake hose, power steering cooler and waterpump will be empty of water. In the spring, open all the drains and catch the antifreeze in a bucket under the bilge drain, for reuse.

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

After the block and manifolds are drained of water, pour some straight A-F into the raw water intake hose where it connects to the thermostat housing.

Ahhh...I was waiting for someone to catch me on this.

The reason I do it the way I wrote is because according to everything I've read and learned, antifreeze NEEDS to be cut with water 50%-70% or else it can damage seals and becomes corrosive. You should NEVER run straight antifreeze.

Here is a quote from Prestone.com's instructions for their low-tox antifreeze:

Install minimum 50%, maximum 67% Prestone LowTox antifreeze/coolant and water.

This is another quote from the FAQ section of the same site:

We recommend that you use between a 50% and 70% concentration of antifreeze. At least 50% is necessary to give the adequate amount of corrosion protection, as well as freeze/boilover protection. However, we do not recommend more than 70% antifreeze. This would cause restriction of the heat transfer capabilities, corrosion protection, and freeze protection.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have general training and I know what has worked for me. I have never had a corrosion issue or had a circulating pump go bad on me.

Just my 2 cents.

Chuck

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

Chuck, You never actually run the motor on the antifreeze, so no harm comes to the seals.( I am not convinced that pure A-F would harm the seals, in comparison to the salt water and silt I normally run thru the block).

You use full strength A-F so that any residual water in the block will not dilute the A-F down to an unsafe concentration.

For the record I have never had a waterpump fail in the spring.

 

[John_S]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

If you do the anti-freeze method vs air, I recommend the draining and filling via the inlet hose method. I recommend the low-tox stuff, with rust prevention pkg, that is made specificly for I/O winterization. It is around $10 a gallon. It was a Camco product. Use at 100%. Recycle it in the spring and save for the next winter.

"http://www.camco.net/faqwinterization.cfm"

 

[wire2]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

I used to just drain all the water and leave the plugs out for the winter. Simple.

One summer, with the outdrive clogged with weeds, it overheated and warped the heads. I took the heads to an engine build shop for planing, he pointed out the severe rusting in the water passages. He suggested the block would look the same, and while it was unlikely to rust through anywhere, the rust would hamper water flow and proper cooling.

I mixed 2? gal of regular anti-freeze with 2? gal water in a 5 gal plastic jug.
After draining the lake water from the engine and replacing the plugs, I connected an old RV water pump pressure side to the muffs, put the suction end in the jug.

Then spread a 6' x 6' sheet of 6 mil plastic under the outdrive, with pieces of 2x4 lumber under the edges to form a dam all around. It was a stringer drive then, coolant comes out of a LOT of places.

I started the pump and let most of the 5 gal go through the system. Stopped the pump.
Then sucked out the plastic sheet back into the pail. In the spring, I open the drains, catch the A-F in a pail under the bilge drain.

I've been using the same 5 gal for several years now, I lose only a pint or so each time.

It had been alluded to in previous posts, pure anti freeze (ethylene glycol) will solidify and expand at sub zero, hence the label warning.

50/50 is good to ~-34?, stronger is good for even colder BUT up to a maximum of ~66%. After that, the freeze temp rises again.
See; http://www.peakantifreeze.com/images/art_protection_chart.jpg

 

[John_S]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

It must be that time of year again! Time for the air vs anti-freeze vs anti-freeze method discussions again.

"50/50 is good to ~-34?, stronger is good for even colder BUT up to a maximum of ~66%. After that, the freeze temp rises again.
See; http://www.peakantifreeze.com/images...tion_chart.jpg"

The chart does not show the temperature rising above 66% and do not believe it is the case. What you do lose, is the ability to transfer heat from the block/heads to the liquid, and from the liquid to the radiator. This has no importance for winterizing an engine.

The product I use states it is good to -100 degreeF. Any dillution with water raises that threashold. While I only need protection to -32F, the extra leaway accommidates the small dilution that occurs from residual water that is there after draining.

IMHO, using e/g and your method is frought with the possibilty of a mistake and environ contamination. Even using low-tox, draining to bilge, and then to funnel/containers, will have some residual that will get into the envronment when I run it on muffs in the spring. The air method is the most environ friendly.

The air method is what you will find that most or all of the seasoned boat mechanics that hang out here, recommend. Its hard to argue with "air won't freeze". It is also the easiest and quickest method, once you know how to do it for your boat.

While very debatable, I "believe" that the rust prevention pkg does provide a little help to extend the life of the block/heads/manifolds. But, in doing so, I try to avoid as much contamination risk, as I can.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

John, I winterized my Merc 4.3LX many times. Even after removing all drain plugs and draining for several minutes, there was always residual water in the power steering cooler, waterpump, both sides of the block and both manifolds. The antifreeze would push it out, as I poured it in.

I do not doubt that many folks do not use antifreeze in favor of the air method, however I thought the amount of resdual water dangerous to leave in the block.

 

[John_S]

Re: Winterizing on muffs - anti-freeze

Yes, there is ussually at least some residual, but if it freezes it will have room to expand in the air. The water has to be trapped to expand and break something.