wiring question

divo

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Re: wiring question

After reading some of the replies to this question (and others that are similar) I am wondering just how many who replied here are actually licensed electricians.
 

dhammann

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Re: wiring question

I do, along with HVAC license and being an indusrial Engineer
 

butlp

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Re: wiring question

I'm an Instrumentation and Controls Engineer with a Electrical Engineering Degree from the UK, I'm not a licensed electrician though!
 

alden135

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Re: wiring question

Sid,<br /><br />A little advice from a contractor:<br /><br />1) There is a lot more to wiring than wire size and breaker ratings. Some localities require wire stacks at the boxes, some require every penetration to be fire caulked, blah blah so on and so forth.<br /><br />2) You may be able to find a real electrician who may be cheaper than what you would expect. I pay $40/outlet complete. Also, screw ups will be the electricians problem, not yours.<br /><br />3) If your going to do the work yourself I would really sugest as mentioned before that you have a talk w/the electrical inspector.<br /><br />4) The most valuable advice I can give you is that "code enforcement" is at the total discretion of the induvidual inspector. In the real world they often require you to do more than the code requires, or less than what is safe. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE INSPECTOR/CEO. This may not be right or ethical, but it is how it works in the field. I'd talk to them before starting.<br /><br />Good luck :)
 

tashasdaddy

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Re: wiring question

sid i'm a retire builder, i know how to do it but , due to keep up with code, i still used a licensed electian. if you have an electrical fire your insurance MAY NOT PAY. it does happen.
 

Mark42

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Re: wiring question

Originally posted by JustMrWill:<br /> .... 20 amp breaker... in my "workshop"... I should run 12# wire from that to the 5 outlets in this area and I should use 20amp outlets. <br /><br />Some questions:<br /><br />a. I am installing a light switch for overhead shop light...this will be tied into this curcuit..can I use 14# wire and a 15amp outlet for shop light? or does it also have to be 12# and 20amp? <br /><br />b. Next room over will be my "fitness" center...overhead light and maybe a stereo...I am planning on putting 3 outlets in this room and was going to put it on the same circuit as shop area...do these have to be run with 12# and 20amp outlets? or can I "tie into" curcuit with 14# and 15amp outlets?<br /><br />Thanks in advance...sorry for hi-jacking...just working on my project when I read this ..now want clarification before I do anything else. :cool:<br /><br />-JMW
Mr Will, you do not have to use 20 amp rated outlets on the 20 amp circuit, but in a shop it does make sense. In a kitchen, 15 amp outlets on the 20 amp circuit is the norm. Also, put a 20amp rated GFI outlet as the first in the series or use a GFI breaker. <br /><br />A: If the pannel has a 20 amp breaker, all wire on the cirucit must be #12, even if you are just plugging in a neon night light. <br /><br />B: Same as A, but you don't HAVE to use 20 amp outlets, 15 amp outlets will meet code.<br /><br />Also, when wiring a room, there are code rules that must be followed about how far apart outlets in a room can be. Basically, there cannot be more than 12 feet between outlets (unless a door or archway is between them). I'm simplifying it, but a book on home wiring will lay it all out for you. Plus you will have a much better wiring job than if you just "wing it".
 

--GQ--

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Re: wiring question

Originally posted by divo:<br /> After reading some of the replies to this question (and others that are similar) I am wondering just how many who replied here are actually licensed electricians.
Resume:<br />Licensed by the state of California (mandatory). Worked for the IBEW for 10 years right outta high school. Non-working active member. Got my EE at USC class of 97. Did consultant work (electrical) for a local Architect Firm. <br /><br /> Would you hire me?
 

divo

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Re: wiring question

"Would you hire me?"<br /><br /> Sorry, but no. Putting 2 bedrooms on 3 circuits is not only a total waste of money and time, wiring houses like that would put me out of buisness and I would have to sell the boat. <br /><br /> "The NEC does not permit more than 10 plugs/recepticles per circuit." <br /><br /> Not in the copy that I have<br /><br />"DO NOT USE ARC-FAULT CIRCUIT BEAKERS FOR LIGHTING APPLICATION. It will trip the breaker everytime you turn on the light."<br /><br /> check the wiring
 

18rabbit

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Re: wiring question

GQ – going to get your Calif state electrician’s certificate? A quirk in the program says a licensed electrician must have that certificate if they ever work for another licensed electrician. Bizarre. With your electrical license you are ok to work under your own license (for yourself), but after Jan ’06 you can’t work under or for another contractor with an electrical license without that certificate, even tho you have your own license. In general, I’m glad Calif is finally getting around to requiring anyone that touches a wire nut to be tested and certified or licensed.
 

Mark42

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Re: wiring question

Originally posted by crab bait:<br /> ....<br />mark is also right on the 15 amp recepticals... but is also wrong.. <br /><br />a standard/regular duplex outlet is considered two outlets .. so one 15 amp duplex receptical on a 20 amp circut is fine..
Thanks for clarifying that, crab bait. There are so many details in the code that the average do-it-yourself guy can't remember it all. I also don't have the $150 or so to drop on the NEC, so I rely on the home wiring books I have and trust that their examples and references to specific NEC codes are sufficient to keep the average wiring job to code.<br /><br />And there are lots of code that are very subjective. Such as romex can be exposed in a room, as long as it is run in a location that will not subject it to possable damage. Well, just how high up a wall is a safe height? 4ft? 7ft? Is the corner of a room safe? How about under cabinets or around door or window casings? It is a matter of interpretation.
 

--GQ--

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Re: wiring question

Actually I am certified By the IBEW and licensed by the state although i'm not working as an electrician. You must have certain number of "working hour" to even qualify for testing. " 8000 hours" if i remember correctely. California is one of the few states requiring every "Journeyman" to be licensed which is a good thing. If you ask me, I think they should all have a BA degree to be making that kind of money ( $33/hr in LA and close to $40/hr around frisco area).<br /><br />By next year, the state will start enforcing the law. Some of the local "nonunion contractors" are running scared. I smell $$$.<br /><br />Side tracking a little bit. Where was I? Ooo yea Iboats.<br /><br />As for you Mr. Divo, if you have a question or just looking to gain knowlege feel free to post your question. I am 99.9% sure someone will answer.<br /><br />carry on
 

18rabbit

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Re: wiring question

Originally posted by --GQ--:<br /> ... If you ask me, I think they should all have a BA degree to be making that kind of money ( $33/hr in LA and close to $40/hr around frisco area). ...
The going rate for general electrical work in the SF area is around $130/hr for a licensed electrician, $70-$90/hr for an electrician (journeyman) working under someone else’s license. But there are flat rates for common task like installing a duplex receptacle, recessed lights, whatever. At those rates there is lots of incentive for DIY electrical by homeowners.
 

divo

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Re: wiring question

"As for you Mr. Divo, if you have a question or just looking to gain knowlege feel free to post your question. I am 99.9% sure someone will answer."<br /><br />Considering the fact that about 50% of the replies above are flat out wrong, and possibly dangerous (including yours Mr GQ) I would go elsewhere for answers. The fact of the matter is that he should do nothing til he talks to the inspector. Then seek answers to his questions by people he knows to be qualified to answer.
 

dhammann

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Re: wiring question

Dive, NEC article 200 states that dwelling circuits are to be calculated at 180va (watts or 1-1/2 amps per outlet. This means 10 outlets max for a 15 amp ciruit or 13 for a 20 amp circuit. There are exceptions but not for bedrooms. Again I cannot emphasize the importance of arc fault breakers, they are the most signifigant change the NEC has ever made...they have prevented thousands of house fires.
 

divo

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Re: wiring question

The outlets in question would fall under 220.3(B)(10). Therefore, as stated in the first sentence of 220.3(B)(9), that section does not apply. There is no code section that I am aware of that assigns 180 volt-amperes (or any other value) to the general purpose receptacles in a residence. In a residince, the code regulates the minimum number of general purpose circuits that must be provided (3v/a x square foot), but not the number of outlets on those circuits.
 

JustMrWill

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Re: wiring question

Thanks Mark42 for answering my question. <br />The previous information was there but I just wanted to make sure that I understood it completely and correctly.<br /><br />I have replaced the 20amp breaker with a 15 amp one until I can run new #12 wire....gawd my house was mickey moused by the previous owners...I have the LR, BR1, BR2 all on one 15amp breaker (no wonder I can't run 2 window ACs at the same time in diff rooms). Then I have the door bell on its own 20amp breaker!!!! (What a friggin waste!!)<br /><br />Thanks for the suggestion on GFI as first in series...I will be replacing 20amp I have there now (or replacing breaker with GFI one).<br /><br />-JMW
 

--GQ--

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Re: wiring question

Ahhhh an answer leads to another question.....Devo you are mixing apples and oranges. The (3va x square foot) figure is used to calculate how much power/branch circuits needed for a certain area. It has nothing to do with recepticles rating. In residential wiring, general purpose outlets are rated at 180va. A 15a circuit at 120v would yield 1800va thus no more than 10 recepticles shall be used. The NEC does not specificly say 10 recept. per circuit, but based on infos. above, we can use reason and logic to come to this.<br /><br />Based on experience using arc-fault breakers for lighting circuit is useless since light fixtures are encased by protective enclosures and are permenately mounted on wall/cieling thus preventing accidental contact between equipments and personnel and any arcing inside the equipment would be suppressed, hence limiting fire hazard. Furthermore, "ARC"-fault breakers can not differentiate between normal arcing inside incondescent light bulbs( not all do) and unintended arcing where electrons jump between two conductors creating a path of hot flame where exposed to flammable materials/personnel may cause fire and or death. Consequentely, nuesance tripping will result.<br /><br />Mr. Divo you stated that, "50% of the replies above are flat out wrong". Please feel free to point them out to me. Having scrolled up and down the post, I notice you have disagreement with others comments/suggestions (right or wrong), but you have yet to post your ideas/solutions. Mr Divo sometime its easier to be part of a problem than it is to be a part of a solution. And you further stated, "I am wondering just how many who replied here are actually licensed electricians"........Simon says, what is your credential"?<br /><br /><br />18rabbit, those are union electrician rates I was refering to. The total packageincluding benefits is around $57, $67 per hour respectively. Your $70-$90 per hour figure is a bit too high. For residential wiring, you will go out of business. That maybe what a contractor would charge a customer.<br /><br /><br />One More Cast, "So when you say 10 outlets max does that mean 5 duplex receptacles"?<br /><br />A duplex is one recepticle with two "3 prongs connection pionts" on top of one another.
 

divo

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Re: wiring question

Originally posted by --GQ--:<br /> Ahhhh an answer leads to another question.....Devo you are mixing apples and oranges. The (3va x square foot) figure is used to calculate how much power/branch circuits needed for a certain area. It has nothing to do with recepticles rating. In residential wiring, general purpose outlets are rated at 180va. A 15a circuit at 120v would yield 1800va thus no more than 10 recepticles shall be used. The NEC does not specificly say 10 recept. per circuit, but based on infos. above, we can use reason and logic to come to this.<br /><br />Based on experience using arc-fault breakers for lighting circuit is useless since light fixtures are encased by protective enclosures and are permenately mounted on wall/cieling thus preventing accidental contact between equipments and personnel and any arcing inside the equipment would be suppressed, hence limiting fire hazard. Furthermore, "ARC"-fault breakers can not differentiate between normal arcing inside incondescent light bulbs( not all do) and unintended arcing where electrons jump between two conductors creating a path of hot flame where exposed to flammable materials/personnel may cause fire and or death. Consequentely, nuesance tripping will result.<br /><br />Mr. Divo you stated that, "50% of the replies above are flat out wrong". Please feel free to point them out to me. Having scrolled up and down the post, I notice you have disagreement with others comments/suggestions (right or wrong), but you have yet to post your ideas/solutions. Mr Divo sometime its easier to be part of a problem than it is to be a part of a solution. And you further stated, "I am wondering just how many who replied here are actually licensed electricians"........Simon says, what is your credential"?<br /><br /><br />18rabbit, those are union electrician rates I was refering to. The total packageincluding benefits is around $57, $67 per hour respectively. Your $70-$90 per hour figure is a bit too high. For residential wiring, you will go out of business. That maybe what a contractor would charge a customer.<br /><br /><br />One More Cast, "So when you say 10 outlets max does that mean 5 duplex receptacles"?<br /><br />A duplex is one recepticle with two "3 prongs connection pionts" on top of one another.
"The NEC does not specificly say 10 recept. per circuit"<br /><br /> Thats not what you said before.<br /><br /><br />Based on experience using arc-fault breakers for lighting circuit is useless since light fixtures are encased by protective enclosures and are permenately mounted on wall/cieling thus preventing accidental contact between equipments and personnel and any arcing inside the equipment would be suppressed, hence limiting fire hazard. <br /> <br /> You must be joking....<br /><br /> "Furthermore, "ARC"-fault breakers can not differentiate between normal arcing inside incondescent light bulbs( not all do) and unintended arcing where electrons jump between two conductors creating a path of hot flame where exposed to flammable materials/personnel may cause fire and or death. Consequentely, nuesance tripping will result."<br /><br /> The first batch that came out didnt work very well. Since they have fixed the bugs and now they work perfectly.<br /><br /><br />I have 20 years in the field. I am a state licensed master electrician,I have an unrestricted <br /> state electrical inspectors license. I am currently a self employed electrician and an electrical inspector for a local community. I did post my Idea/ solution..... Call the inspector. In my area, each municipality has their own rules. If you dont know what they are and you do it not the way the inspector wants.....you will have to redo it. I would be happy to help him out....but I have no knowledge of the local codes in his area. If he were to call the inspector and ask if there is any local amendments to the nec. When I am called to bid a job like this the first question i ask is....where is it. Until you know that, and their rules,...you cant even start.
 
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