Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

[braindead0]

I'm planning on replacing all the wiring in my boat, it was done by an eeediot ;-). My plan is to get a new battery box, install a new fuse box (water resistant marine) and put in a circuit breaker (rated at amps the fuse box is rated at) at the battery and suitable sized wiring to the fuse box.<br /><br />I'm thinking about running the power wires, bilge and rear light wires and motor wires through a peice of PVC to act as a conduit. <br /><br />Once I've got the fuse box near the helm, I'll run appropriate wires (and fuses) to all accessories. <br /><br />The plan is to solder all joints, and seal with liquid electrical tape... and of course strap all wires to the boat outta the way (currently there are some hanging in the bow seating area).<br /><br />I'll be using 'marine grade' wires all the way of course.<br /><br />Anything else I should be doing? I think there are two 'camps' re: soldering vs. crimping connections but I think all the arguments against solder (corrosion and the like) are perhaps mitigated by using liquid masking tape. Perhaps some RTV/silocone as well.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Sounds good to me. I used a circuit beaker switch panel. I had six switchs, with the circuilt breaker for each circuit right next to each switch, and the rockers are illuminated. $39 for it, well worth it because it keeps everything tidy and neat and easy to get to.<br /><br />

 

[braindead0]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

did you convert to center console? Looks kinda like my boat, but with the driver/passenger consoles removed ;-)

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

I went through completely rewiring from scratch a 79 Formula with twin 350s. I am an EE and studied the subject extensively before I began the project. Here is what I have to share:<br /><br />1) It is against the ABYC standards to rely on soldered connections. Marine grade connectors (butt, ring, spade, etc.) must be used.<br /><br />Here is a link to the code:<br /> http://www.ancorproducts.com/Technical_information/ABYC_Standards.html <br /><br />Soldered connections are not srong enough to last under the constant vibration, etc a boat experiences. In addition, solder can heat up and reflow breaking the conenction.<br /><br />2) I highly recommend Ancor Marine wire or any other marine grade wire where each strand is individually tinned for corrosion protection. (you can not use solid conductor wire on a boat. It is against code. Under the stresses it will break)<br /><br />3) I have never seen conduit used. There is no need that I know of to use conduit if you use Ancor or other marine grade wire. The insulator is designed to be impervious to water, oil, gas, etc. Most corrosion actually happens due to wicking from connectors/breaks<br /><br />4) Buy the best automatic wire stripper and ratcheting crimper you can afford (double crimp type).<br /><br />5) I used sealed marine breakers located right next to sealed marine rocker switches rather than a central fuse box. That way you have instant access from the helm plus no wondering if a fuse is blown.<br /><br />6) Shrink wrap all connections using Ancor's adhesive lined shrink or use any good shrink and use RTV/ silicone over the connection (has same effect as adhesive lined shrink)<br /><br />7) Use the heaviest gauge wiring you can afford. Anchors 2 conductor "safety" wire is the best product since the wheel. I use their 14/2 for most all acessories. <br /><br />8) Tie all you grounds to a single point (as much as possible) prevents ground loops.<br /><br />9) Take a look at the Blue Sea bus bars. I found them to be excellent. Ancors are probably as good though.<br /><br />Hope this helps.

 

[snapperbait]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Sounds like a plan... You've done your homework...<br /><br />I would not solder the connections... A poor soldering job can add extra resistance in a circut and i've seen a few instances where wires that were soldered to a terminal actually broke at the soldered joint after a few years... <br /><br />Use marine grade heat shrink connectors (butt connectors, ring terminals, ect.)... Thats what I use everyday and I've never had a failure with that system in saltwater environment...

 

[RTW2112]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

"1) It is against the ABYC standards to rely on soldered connections."<br /><br />This is incorrect and taking the standards out of context. What the standard states is that solder is not to be used as a "mechanical" connection. If you want to use solder go right ahead just do it properly. Use a non-insulated spade or ring terminal, crimp it down making your mechanical connection then solder it to make your electrical connection, lastly install your heat shrink tubing over it and you're done.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Yes I did convert it to a center console. I did it when I had the boat apart for a transom/floor/stringer/foam replacement.<br /><br />

 

[braindead0]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Thanks everybody for the input.. I was wondering about the justification for "don't solder" as I know that a properly soldered connection is stronger than the wires.. and I know how to properly solder ;-).<br /><br />The reason I want to use a 'conduit' is just to keep the wires together/clean looking without having to attach the wires to the hull.. not really concerned about moisture/protection.. just figured it would look nice.<br /><br />I thought about the two conductor marine wire, but I've got an odd number of wires to run and would prefer to color code (and tag) all the wires (tach, lights, bilge, etc) so that it's very clear what goes to where.

 

[rschnack]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Both methods have their pluses and minuses. I work for a company that makes equipment for automotive testing. We make many cables for harsh testing environments. For some applications we solder and others we crimp. I have seen both types fail. <br /> Soldering makes a very good connection but care must be taken to support the wires next to the joint. Wires entering a solder joint bend sharply when the wire moves, causing a stress point that will make the wire break over time. That is why it is very important to use shrink wrap over the joint and if possible support the wire close to the joint to restict its motion.<br /> When a crimp joint is made the metal that is squished into the wire slopes away from the joint, allowing the wire to bend much less sharply, making it better able to withstand bending and vibration. The drawback is that if it is not well sealed corrosion can ruin the connection.<br /> Personally, I prefer to solder the joints, cover them with heat shrink and support the wire with wire ties or cable clamps near all joints to prevent them from flexing as much as possible.<br /><br />RCS

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Solder shall not be the sole means of the mechanical connection in any circuit. Exception: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor (E9.16.K8)<br />

I came out of Aero Space and Defense and we never used soldered joints as the means for mechanical connections. The only exception were certain mil connectos that had deep solder terminals. And even then, the techs had to examine each solder joint under a magnifying glass for voids, etc and we often potted the connector terminals when completed. Hey, if you want to go against the code above, good luck. <br /><br />All you have to do is look at any professionally made marine harness to see how much solder is used (Hint: none) all that is used are insulated terminals, double crimped and shrinked. If you use crimp connectors you just shrink right over them to ensure a water tight seal. Also another reason you use individually tinned wire - reduces corrosion.<br /><br />If you're looking to dress up look into split-loom rather than conduit. That is what it is designed for and is also flexible and easier to work with.<br /><br />

thought about the two conductor marine wire, but I've got an odd number of wires to run and would prefer to color code (and tag) all the wires (tach, lights, bilge, etc) so that it's very clear what goes to where.<br />

2 Suggestions, first you can find marine wiring harnesses that run from the engine to the console already colored coded and connectors installed nicely run through split loom on eBay for very short money. I purchased 2 really nice ones, brand new, that were made for SeaRay. They were excess inventory somebody had (Search ebay, by seller, for Webdog. She liquidates stuff like that for Searay - if she does not have any up just email her she can probably get you one for like $50). Second, Ancor ans others make mutli-conductor cables nicely innsulated in a common outside insulator. I bought some when I was going to make my own engine-to-console harness but decided to use the SeaRay ones when I found them.

 

[JB]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

The very important thing that most people forget when they rewire a boat is:<br /><br />Make a detailed, color coded wiring diagram, seal it in a ziplock and keep it inside the console. Mine is cable strapped to the harness.<br /><br />In 6 months you will have forgotten details you will need to know someday.<br /><br />Good luck.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

JB, that just gives me flashbacks of an International Scout I built up once. Every wire in it was green, and it was a nightmare because nothing in the electrical system worked.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Good advice JB. You ashould also try to stick with the standard marine color codes whenever posible:<br /><br /> http://www.ancorproducts.com/Technical_information/Marine_Color_Code.html <br /><br />I rewired my Formula from scracth (not one piece of original wire in the boat) and tuned the keys when I was done and started both engines. I have not had to touch a single thing since. Planning and sticking with professional methods and products are the keys IMHO.<br /><br />I read an article that estimates that 70% of all boat problems are electrical.

 

[RTW2112]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

"Also another reason you use individually tinned wire - reduces corrosion."<br /><br />Hey Ralph, what exactly are they tinned with?

 

[braindead0]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Thanks for all the good information folks... This'll be a winter project for sure.. and I'll be making a nice wooden dashboard while I'm at it...

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

I'm not sure of the exact alloy they use, but that's not your point is it? You just want me to say solder...<br /><br />The difference is that the tinned wire is done for "maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis" not for it's electrical or mechanical prperties.<br /><br />Copper wire rots due to wicking on good wire and pure penatraion of the insulator on cheaper wire.<br /><br />Like I said, if you want to solder your connections, knock yourself out. I use industry standard techniques - insulated mairine crimp connectors (which are tinned). Marine tinned wire and adhesive linned shrink wrap. I could care less if you used wire nuts and electrical tape. I just pitty the fool who takes the advice. <br /><br />When all you have is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail I guess.

 

[RTW2112]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

I guess you don't know but if you are interested they are tinned with solder. I already corrected your incorrect interpretation of the wiring standards but I guess that wasn't enough for you. Oh yeah by the way only hacks use automatic wire strippers. I guess if I ever want to send a fishing boat in to orbit I'll call in someone from the "Aero Space and Defense" area.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

I suggest a remedial reading class. Perhaps your local Adult education center has something for you.<br /><br />Automatic and/or thermal wire strippers are the only guaranteed way to prevent nicking the conductors That's why they are thr only thing allowed under mil standards. <br /><br />I'm glad I don't own a boat you've worked on...

 

[RTW2112]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

Right. Whatever you say hack. Automatic wire strippers are outlawed by building code in my jurisdiction because of their tendency TO nick conductors. This is why engineers should stay behind their desk and out of the field. The reason why boat manufacturers do not solder their connections is because it is time and cost prohibitive. Period. Stick behind your desk poindexter. I've wired things from 12 to 15K volts and never had a splice or connection go bad. If you have anything further you can just e-mail me and keep your nonsense hack opinoions off this board.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Wiring questions - what's 'proper'

There's a big difference between residential/ building wiring and that used in moving vehicles in hostal environments pal. Automatic wire strippers for electronics are not the same at that for single conductor wire like used in the trades. See for your self:<br />http://www.ancorproducts.com/Products/products_list/tools_meters/tools_meters2 .html#Anchor-61308<br /><br />That's why tradesman are tradesman - they just do what they are told without understanding what's really going on... Stick to what you know and leave the other stuff to people who know what they are talking about. With people like you out there no wonder 70% of all marine failures are electrical...<br /><br />You really think SeaRay or Formula cares about a few extra dollar per harness when they are selling $250K boats they warranty? Man.... stick to being an electrician will ya.<br /><br />I'll put my experience, work and results up against yours any day of the week. My stuff has flown in space (both shuttle and rocket) and is used on every ship and Sub in the US Navy... what do you have, the building on 3rd and Elm?<br /><br />Thank heavens you have seen fit to only post 11 times! I shutter to think of the damage you could have caused.