Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

mustang7nh

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This is a continuation from:<br /> http://www.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=30&t=005378 <br /><br />I just changed all three fuel pumps with brand new Yamaha parts. I discovered the water in the cowling to be related to the speedo tube. High speed fuel pump rebuilt. New primer bulb, bypassed water serator (temporarily) to rule problems there. Ran engine on external tank and still had problems. But I am still having trouble with the engine.<br /><br />Symptoms: <br /> drop in power during acceleration<br /> loss of max rpm (4500 rpm)<br /> Starts perfect, idles perfect, trolls fine (a bit rough but could be normal), never stops working even when its surging or acting up.<br /><br />I'm going to check compression again this week but last time I checked it was fine. The real frustration is that the problem is somewhat intermittant. I can hammer the throttle and have great power and 5000 rpm (its never liked to push more than 5100 but that is another story). Five minutes later the engine has less power and maxes out at 4500 rpm. And so and so on. But the loss of power seems to be more and more the rule. Like its only got 150 horse vs the 250. It humms at 4500 fine. <br /><br />Do dirty carbs every act like this? Or this possible an electrical problem of some sort and I'm lossing a cylinder or timing is being retarded by the computer?<br /><br />1995 Carb 250. Thanks for your help.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

have you tested fuel system vacum at WOT? have you tested stator voltage output at or near WOT? have you made a test run with the diagnostic lamp installed at or near WOT. your problem will require ruling out fuel or ignition. its also possible an carb has some trash in it. while running at the problem RPM squirt some premix into the throttle bores and observe the engines reaction. your going to have to isolate it to fuel or ign and sometimes the only way to do it is testing the system and the problem RPM.<br /> however if the t-stat in the stbd head sticks it will drain #6 fuel bowl and cause a leanout.you will have 5 cyls running rich and one running lean. if when sqirting premix in #6 and the RPM comes back start looking at an overcooling condition. who told you you have a high speed pump and where is it located ?<br /> #6 carb is the lower one on the stbd side of the powerhead.
 

Greenwing

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Jul 24, 2004
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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

I have a 1993 Yamaha 225 that my rpm loss occurs at 2/3 throttle it might drop 300 rpms and when this occurs the WOT is down about 200 rpms but the motor feels like it doesnt have any torque. The most frustrating part is that it only happens maybe one of six times out.<br /><br />I dont know if this has anything to do with the problem or not this past weekend I switched to 93 octane and the motor ran great.<br /><br />Keep us informed on what you find.
 

Ray Neudecker

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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

The 225 will work best with the higher octane. The knock sensor will retard the timing if the fuel tries to detonate.
 

mustang7nh

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May 23, 2005
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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

The 'high speed fuel pump' is part # 61A-13910-01-00 FUEL PUMP ASSY from the yamaha online parts catelog 1995 250 TXRT.<br /><br />One of the hard things about troubleshooting is that you are not sure if subtle differences are your imagination or actual symptoms. The boat does seem to be better when I first start it and run. The over cooling issue might be a possibility.<br /><br />My friend is an outboard mechanic and has promised me some time on Sunday to go for a ride. <br /><br />When I hooked up an external tank with 93 octane vs the 89 in the internal tank, it seemed to be better at first (again). Then after she drank about 3 gallons at 3500 rpm (doesn't take that long) it started acting up again. I couldn't go full bore with the portable because it was choppy and the fuel in the little tank was sloshing around like mad as the boat started leaping out of the water. <br /><br />Rodbolt: is the popit valve and thermostat 'easy' to replace in terms of ruling another thing out?<br /><br />Also, if I squirt raw fuel in versus mixing having some yamalube in it will this hurt?<br /><br />Thanks for your help...I really appreciate it.
 

mustang7nh

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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

Are these ever culprits:<br /><br />61A-85790-00-00 THERMOSENSOR ASSY <br />61A-82560-00-00 THERMO SWITCH ASSY <br />61A-85885-00-00 THROTTLE SENSOR ASSY <br />61A-24470-00-00 FUEL REGULATOR ASSY <br />61A-85780-00-00 SENSOR, KNOCK <br /><br />If a layman can swap this stuff out, then there is still an economic incentive for such trial an error given the shop rates around here. <br /><br />Again thanks, I enjoy learning from everyone.
 

rodbolt

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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

if you wish to splatter gun the troubleshooting be prepared to purchase pistons and machine shop time. its your choice. purchase the proper tools and tech manuals or repair the mechanical damage that will occur and continue trouble shooting. the yamaha diagnostic lamp is relativly cheap, less than a piston in the box on the counter. I have tried to assist you yet you have a steadfast refusal to believe me. if you spray raw gas instead of premix you risk a lean oil condition. my suggestion is not to let a friend that has no training in the V76 ign/fuel system to mess with your motor. they tend to make a simple repair an overhaul. I dont mean to sound harsh but if you dont read and understand how and why the systems work that motor will self destruct. the diagnostic lamp,commonly called the winky blinky can quickly rule out a sensor failure. the TPS can have an inrange failure but a simple run with a voltmeter attached can find it, the TPS is the main ign timing determinant on that system. the pump you refer to is the enrichment pump, it is on anytime the key is on. it supplies fuel from #6 fuel bowl to the 6 enrichment injectors. in certain conditions,cold start,rapid acceleration or knock detected, the computer allows more fuel via the enrichment circuits. thats why a cold engine at high speeds can drain #6 bowl and create a problem. to properly test the system will require 3 or 4 test harness's a peak reading multimeter and a digital multimeter as well as a service manual and a working knowledge of WTF.like I say I dont mean to sound harsh but so far this week I have 2 blown V6 yams that had routine maint issues that were incorrectly diagnosed and now once I repair the mechanical damage I can repair. the bill will go from a 300 or so to about 4K. post back all the electrical test results you have so far. the CDI output is simple to measure but requires a peak reading meter. takes no time to test. I also use a KV tester to test secondary ign output. the KV tester is about 130 dollars.<br /> but I do reccomend a reading session with the service manual. it wont detail how it works but will tell you what each sensor does, but ya have to teach yourself how and why. there were some stator failures in the engine range you have, but overall most yamaha problems with the V76 are fuel issues. there were a few issues with the TPS but with a voltmeter and a timing light they are easy to find. but I cannot understate that understanding the system is imperative to troubleshooting it. you will also find that yamaha electrical parts are expensive and no one stocks them. cause failures are very rare. I have given ya some test tips, follow them. dont re-engineer the system, the system works very well. but post back the results of the fuel system vacum test, the CDI output test and the TPS voltage. remember that if the TPS 5V reference is not correct the rest will be off as well. its a complex system but easy to test. but the testing must be done in a logical sequence or your sunk. the test and tune up spec book will prove invaluable. in my opinion the factory manual is somewhat lacking but needs to be read. the V76 is a complex motor but works well.
 

mustang7nh

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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

Thanks for all your help. Please don’t think I ‘disbelieve’ your advice, I truly appreciate your assistance. I’ll attempt to get some of that diagnostic readings and post it.
 

mustang7nh

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May 23, 2005
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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

OK- problem found (hopefully). The originally enrichment pump that was rebuilt was the culprit again. The j tube had rotted. When we were checking around with the fuel lines with it idling, the thing let go altogther and was spraying fuel out. Limped back to the dock. New pump on order. <br /><br />Explains why the first test run after rebuilding the pump I got the most rpm ever (for me) and no problems. Next run problems again. This time it was just a different failure on the pump. I hope that is all that is given it problems.<br /><br />Thanks for everyone's help, particularly Rodbolt.<br /><br />Just for curiousity though, the oil is injected into the carbs through different hoses. And the three fuel pumps were feeding fuel. With the enrichment pump not giving its full capacity, does this equate to a 'lean' situations or just what amounts to less throttle, hence, less horsepower? Is the engine getting proper lubrication irrespective of the enrichement pump?<br /><br />Thanks again.
 

Ray Neudecker

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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

It can result in a lean situation. Lubrication system is basically independent of fuel sytem until the two items meet in the engine.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Yamaha 250 loss of rpm

the enrichment system is just that. enrichment. its not used for normal running.<br /> under certain conditions of acceleration,deaccelleration, cold engine temps and knocking the ECU will allow enrichment in stages. however like I warned ya before if the system works improperly it can and will drain the #6 fuel bowl and destroy #6 piston. at rapid acceleration the ECU sees the sudden change in TPS voltage and opens the injectors, same for knock detect. one way to stop detonation is to richen the fuel mix. another is to retard timing. if to many knocks are detected the ECU will lock timing at 7*BTDC until the speed is returned to idle. if the sensor is dissconected timing is locked at 7*BTDC as well so dont try running with it dissconected. but all the fuel for the enrichment circuits comes from and the excess returned to #6 fuel bowl. the oil is injected ito the intake downstream of the carbs. its mixed and atomized by the fuel charge entering the crankcase. which is why that system can withstand high speed lean conditions better than some of the others that mix the fuel and oil at the pump and feed the fuel/oil mix to a fuel bowl or vapor seperator. the latter type system is more prone to smoke a piston at the first lean out due to inadequate lubrication coupled with abnormally high combustion temps.
 
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