Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

[rbh]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

BP-
I do not know your feelings on the parenting skills of the parents of todays youth, but I find it kinda pittifull compared to the way I was raised, YES/NO MR, MRS, thank you, can I please be excussed from the table, that kinda stuff.
There was non of that PC stuff, you stepped out of line, your butt got whacked!!
Now I know I am far from perfect, but I at least have a good work ethic I think, todays youth, just getting them to show up to work on time is hard to do

(I see it every time I try and hire some one under 25+- years of age "around here")

Now little Jimmey and Janey 18-25+- are still attached to the parents with the apron strings as well as the wallet strings in alot of cases because they didn't want to be "their" parents and now look what happened.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

My approach has been similar to JB's. And we usually make the child stew and think about it for a while before coming to a "final decision."

As for the second question, my wife and I always agree in front of the kids. We may disagree and discuss it in private, but never in front of the kids. It is a united front that the kids know, love, respect, and appreciate. They know they can't play one against the other. Behind closed doors we will talk about it and come to an agreement, but NEVER in front of the kids.

 

[rogerwa]

I will add that I am seeing some of the effects of how I raised my kids. Not necessarily to the negative, but I have to come to the realization that while my intents were good and toward making them accountable, the fact that I would not let them have a hard fail have unwittingly given them the perception that there is always a safety net. As parents that is what we try to do.

It is hard to let them fail and it goes against our fiber if we have the means to avoid it.

I am going through this right now with my daughter in her first year of college. We set a goal that she needs to contribute at least $5,000 annually to her college for the numbers to work. Here she is before the spring semester and who knows how much she has. I told her that i am not dong more than what I already committed to and that she needs to figure it out. I have the means but I will not do it. I have a feeling I am in for a little tough sledding until she can get her spending under control and takes this seriously.

I think she assumes I will solve the problem, even when I told her I wouldn't.

The real problem is that we as parents have more resources at our disposal and our kids never need anything. I always thought not spoiling them was the key. But I think they need to know what it is to need and to be responsible for what happens when that need is not met.

 

[drrpm]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

Its a hard question and I feel that bad acts need consequences of equal magnitude. However, there are so many zero tolerance rules today that its ridiculous. I was a pretty good kid, but got into ocassional fights at school, usually carried a scout knife and wasn't above playing pranks. Today any of those things would get you expelled, sent to an alternative school or sent to jail.

Another factor is that there is good scientific evidence that the prefrontal cortex, which is key to evaluating risk and moderating impulses, is not fully developed until at least 25 years old. I'd be willing to cut the young some slack for offenses that don't involve interpersonnal violence as long as there is remorse and restitution.

 

[tomdinwv]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

Do you and your spouse share the same view of discipline for your kids?

No, not by a long shot. My wife, she will call the kids out for something they have done and show her displeasure and usually drop the issue. I'm the hard a**. I'll tell them what they did wrong and dish out an appropriate (to me) punishment. We have been pretty fortunate so far. Our biggest problems so far is not doing work in school and keeping attitudes in check.

We don't dish out physical punishment. Like most kids, they have many luxurys. (Cell phones, I-pods, video games and such) I have no problem taking these luxury items for a set time period or until they can correct their problem. They are also not allowed to go anywhere but school when they are grounded.

Fortunatly, we have never had a child get into any trouble involving the law. I hope we never do. I knew one thing when I was young. If I messed up bad, I wanted to stay in jail. The LAST thing I wanted to do would be to go home and face my dad. As far as the kids referred to in the op, they should face the consequences for their actions, even if it follows them for the rest of their lives. Just because a "mob" does something it does not mean you should follow. What about the people who lost property or may have been hurt during this riot? They did not have a choice when it came to the destruction of their property. The people who did the damage had a choice to make and they made the wrong one. They should suffer the consequences.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

That's what my parents told me, yes we had a ticket had to pay it myself. Broke some stuff of ther peoples replaced. But knew if we had to take care of our own problems we all worked to keep our butts out of trouble. Told my son this too and s far has been a good kid.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

Oops, I fully agree on having the kids (teens/adults...) pay full restitution....but will they be the ones paying?.....probably....not, maybe 1/2.
Rob, I agree with the point you are making on todays (average?) parenting approach vs. years ago. I was a kid in the 60's and a teen in the 70's and one of 4 kids. My parents were pretty average people and it wasn't uncommon that I (or my sisters) got the odd 'cuff' or slap on the head for being out of line. It was always pretty clear that any bad behaviour in the house AND very importantly out of the house had repercussions. Respect for the neighbours was downloaded to us for sure and you tended to 'watch your step' when you were out because they would just as easily call you out on bad behaviour or goofing around as the parents would and when the neighbours ratted you out, you usually got an earful about it. I think this has changed to some degree.
Anyways, the 'no latitude for leniency' is one of the big issues with ensuring the kids being charged that the parents are wrestling with. A lot of public outcry has rightfully pinpointed the fact the if they are NOT charged then this will give them or the next generation of kids full confidence in repeating this again knowing that nothing bad comes out of this kind of behaviour. This is an excellent and very important point on this. These kids are smart and if they smell any weakness of flakiness on behalf of authority....they are going to take that mile I think.
Roger, you're not alone in this 'learn to budget' stuff. They are starting to consider offering courses for teens now on how to manage money. The extended stay at home common with certainly teenagers and many kids into their mid 20's has them launch into independence with very minimal skills on how to manage money, debt and priorities. JB, I think this is a big generational difference these days....not for all kids (...there I go ago again with the 'kids' vs. adults? thing). I would never say this applies to all kids....but certainly more lately than I recall in the past.
How old was everyone when they first moved out of the house? (for me, I was 19 years old and didn't return except for a 3 month stint one summer while I was in school).
BP

 

[aspeck]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

You got me thinking about this and I believe we, as a society, have lost our "pioneer" spirit. Bear with me as I explain.

The pioneers sought out new places, traveled in virtually unknown territory, in order to make a better life for themselves and their families. As they branched out, they were on their own. They HAD to take responsibility for their actions. If they did not succeed, they died at the hands of hunger or the elements.

Knowing that, neighbors reached out and helped neighbors. Help was appreciated, because it was the lifeblood of survival, but never expected. Everyone knew that they were all facing the same harsh forces.

In the growth of technology, social services, and basic 'enlightenment', we have lost the pioneer spirit and grown a new generation of "entitlement mentality." This is a mentality that everyone else is responsible for me. I am not responsible for my actions because I was born this way, or because my mother didn't love me, or because my boss didn't give me a 9th chance, or ... It is always someone elses fault.

In my opinion, we need parents to take responsibility for the actions of our kids. If they are disciplined when they are young, the problems will the rioting would be lessoned (there are always exceptions and this is a broad generalization).

Example: Teen violence. Our kids spend hours playing violent video games that glorify beating down someone or killing them. The violent behavior is fun, entertaining, and it doesn't hurt. So get in a mob setting and it is easy to go along with the flow. (I am not saying video games MAKE someone violent ... bear with me.) Take that same kid. Teach him how to use a real gun. Take him hunting so he can kill an animal. Let him see the life drain from one of God's creatures. Let him experience the end of life and the reality of what happens when the trigger is pulled. Let him celebrate the life of what was once living but now it will provide sustance and life for his family. Let him experience the "pioneer spirit" and the responsibility of that our actions produce consequences. I believe that in a mob he will now act diffferently.

I am getting away from your original question, but I believe the sooner a young person has the value of consequences instilled in his or her life, the better person they will grow up to be.

Sorry for my soap-box, but you have had me thinking about this all day!

 

[I Fish]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

In Ohio, your first offense can be expunged from your record, so, learning the hard way may not affect your future, IF, you learn the first time. Raising the legal adult age is a great idea. Lets get it on up to about 40, and I can regain my youth. I know I still do some dumb things, even the wife says I'm so 12 sometimes....

If I were the judge, there would be a total dollar amount of damage ascertained, divide that by the number of offenders, and that would be the amount of their restitution. Give them 3 years to pay it off. Then, take the same dollar amount and let the offenders work off their share as community service for, oh, say something like 17 cents an hour, and that would be their fine and punishment. I'm sure some of the kids will get the short end of the stick, but maybe that will teach them about mob rule, you're either in, or your out, but you can't be both. They would probably make a better decision the next time. Like it, or not, life has consequences. It doesn't matter if you're 8, 18, or 80. Any of the kids that did not meet the court order would be held in contempt, and dealt with accordingly.

As far as any of them losing their current jobs or careers, well, I guess you pay to play. Most schools have a GPA you have to keep at, or above, or you can't play ball. If the star player is failing, do we lower the accepted GPA, or cancel the ball game? No, life goes on. If the same star player gets caught drinking at an underage party, what happens?

While I might try to influence the final punishment, I'd let there be punishment. I don't know of any cops, prosecutors, or judges, who are out to destroy any childs future. A lot of them have kids of their own.

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

How old was everyone when they first moved out of the house? (for me, I was 19 years old and didn't return except for a 3 month stint one summer while I was in school).
BP

I was on my own at 13. I fed and put clothes on me plus still managed to graduate from school. I was lucky as I had a night time job and an imployer that kinda looked after me by keeping me working. But anything I did was on me.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

Aspeck: I know what you are referring to...there is a loss of connection to the community. However I'm not sure if it is really the teen's fault or responsibility. I believe most of the backstory on that comes from the way the family behaves within the community and the teens just a take a page from that book.
The teens being brought up before the court are pretty dumbfounded by all of this community focus on them....one at a time.....ouch!
Rob...you left home at 13? Yikes.....but good on you for turning it up and making things happen for yourself.
This issue with teens/young adults is pretty pervasive. In our neck of the woods the 'still at home' in their 20's syndrome is driven alot by cost of living issues here in Victoria...which are high. On the other hand most young adults consider their 'personal lifestyle' (technology/fashion/new car) cash not part of their 'cost of living' cash (food/housing).

Here is another twist to the legal story that is getting very mixed reviews. The courts are considering putting cameras in the proceedings. Now, I know they have been doing this in the U.S for quite a while but this is new in Canada. Will this ruin the teens lives? Its funny how something can become a 'bad' idea when it suddenly affects your own.
The irony in the 'no cameras' plee is that every teen on the street that night had one....and spent half their time filming one another, which is were a lot of the video evidence came from.
Suddenly film/video is not such a good thing.

What has changed in the parenting that our grandparents did, vs our parents vs our generation? What has compelled people to remove important life lessons from their kids under the guise of not wanting their kids to 'suffer'. This is a really confusing question and issue....but damn interesting.

BP

 

[rbh]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No I am Rob, he's Kerry.

But I did join the CDN army at 17 though.

 

[JB]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

I don't particularly like it, BP, but I do believe that suffering unpleasantness is an essential part of transitioning from child to adult. Though we think of adolescence as a physical transition it is also a psychological transition that often isn't complete until the late 20s.

That unpleasantness is the consequence of childlike, selfish and insensitive behavior. If parents intervene and deal effectively with that behavior early in adolescence the transition is quicker and a lot less painful.

If I take inventory of accomplishments in my life nothing compares to my pride in the great human beings my children became.

 

[rbh]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

OH, the one thing no one touched on is that these rioters were for the most part 19 years and above (probably a few in their 30's), thus they are adults in the courts eyes.

and if your that old and do not have it together, you deserve to have your ???? slapped!

 

[aspeck]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

BP, I agree that parents in particular and society in general have a big part to play in this, and that is one of the points I was trying to make. We have softened things up a bit over the years and lost the responsibility factor. I think part of that is due to parents wanted their children to have it easier than they did growing up.

I want my kids to feel accepted, wanted, needed, loved, cared for, and to have all their NEEDS met (including learning right from wrong and responsibility for ones actions). I don't want them to grow up feeling they are owed anything, not from the government, not from society, not from anyone. I want them to have a pride in earning. My kids have never recieved and allowance that wasn't earned. They always knew there were certain things that were tied into the money they recieved. Standard household chores like help with the dishes and chores, vacuuming, etc are to be done and shared by everyone in the household, but if you don't practice the piano, don't make your bed and clean-up your room, don't clean your hamster's cage, etc., that is your choice, but you will not recieve the allowance unless you do.

As for moving out of the house, officially it was about 1 year after college (2 years I went to school in another state and finished my college education in my hometown college). But after HS I was responsible for all clothing (except presents), food, etc. I became a renter, not an entitled dweller.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

I don't particularly like it, BP, but I do believe that suffering unpleasantness is an essential part of transitioning from child to adult. Though we think of adolescence as a physical transition it is also a psychological transition that often isn't complete until the late 20s.

That unpleasantness is the consequence of childlike, selfish and insensitive behavior. If parents intervene and deal effectively with that behavior early in adolescence the transition is quicker and a lot less painful.

If I take inventory of accomplishments in my life nothing compares to my pride in the great human beings my children became.

Fully agree JB, and very well put. Interestingly they say the best teacher in life....is failure. It is a natural conundrum in raising kids tho'.....and it takes a level confident head to determine what failure vs. important lessons is vs. what actual 'suffering' is. Maybe this is the difference in what Grandparents (or parents?) saw....is they actual did see true suffering.
My mother-in-law is 93 years old and grew up in the depression on the prairies and.....man, does she have a tough time with the grandkids. She watches the current disposable lifestyle with an awful lot of disdain and is always asking and probing everyone what this or that cost?...or why did you have to buy this or that?....do you need that? etc. She has a good point....but the grandkids have a tough time with understanding at all what she saw and knew.
If your kids get into financial difficulty...how far should it go before you bail them out? Loss of a car? Loss of their Iphone for a couple of months while they pay off the overdue bill? Loss of the 'fun' budget. Or...is the loss of these a good thing in the long run and will the true loss and failure on a payment or bill going to make them stronger next time?

BP

(PJ-Kerry/Rob....sorry about the mix-up...I was impressed with the on your own at 13 element tho'...not that I would wish it up on anyone)

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: Your Teens, responsibility, community and family

There is nothing new about this. Teens have been pushing the envelope since forever. When mine screwed up I stood with them to face the consequences. I told them I was proud of them for facing the music and hoped they learned from the experience.

I think what was most important were two things:

1. You must face the consequences of your behavior, at any age.

2. That does not in the least reduce our love and support. It may actually increase it.

I go along with this position.

Cheers
Phillip

PS.
I was part of a problem in my early 20's. Something can go wrong with young people when in large groups. A sort of pack mentality thinking, but very very destructive (like these riots), and after, no one really knows why they did what they did. I don't think it an unusal event.