Mandates on mpg and ethanol

[SS MAYFLOAT]

I know adding ethanol to gas decreases mileage. Our guberment wants the petrol companies to keep adding a bigger percentage over time. Meanwhile as the mileage of the mixture continues to decrease, the guberment is demanding all cars to get 35 mpg.

Just what are they thinking??.......Its has me confused (yeah I know thats easy to do)

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

This is a old ploy. it goes back to the 70's, i still say it's big oil manipulating the market as they did in the 70's, Along with the liberal pie in the sky attitude on emmisoin's and we the American public are caught in the middle .........dead spot on with no where to go.........

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Sure raises the price of food when we put it in our vehicles.
Sugar beets are a better choice.
Diesel power can get us to the mileage mandate easy enough.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Funny how the government has no problem mandating that private industry do more with less, yet when they need something (want something) they just raise taxes. Typical of a bunch of liberals.

 

[JB]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Someone has short memories there in DC.

In the 60s I had two cars that routinely got 35mpg. Both were Mercedes 190D Diesels. They stunk and smoked, they didn't have AC or power everything (not even power anything) and they weighed around 3200lb. Had to work very hard to reach 75mph. With modern, direct injected and turbocharged diesel engines they would have gotten near 50mpg and been able to cruise at 80.

In the 70s I had two more cars that got mileage in the mid 30s. A Toyota SR5 Corolla and an Audi Fox. The Audi did have air. Neither car weighed over 2700lb. Neither had electric motors tucked into every nook and cranny to use power and add weight. With modern, computer controlled engines they would probably get over 40mpg.

An engine engineered from scratch to burn straight alcohol could be competitive with gasoline engines as far as efficiency goes. Ethanol burns richer and cooler than gasoline but can use higher compression ratios and produce more hp per cubic inch at a given rpm. Therefore ethanol burners would be smaller and lighter, burn much cleaner and drive grain prices through the ceiling.

So. Do automakers know how to build cars that get 35mpg, even on ethanol? Sure they do. They would be small and light and manually operated. Would anyone buy them? Probably only severely green people.

I agree that for the short term modern turbodiesels, maybe "plug in" hybrid turbodiesels, are a far better solution than trying to run overweight vehicles designed to use gas (LOTS of gas) on ethanol or even part ethanol. Diesels can run well and clean on oils from sources that do not compete with the food industry.

 

[treedancer]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

. Quote Pointer94

Funny how the government has no problem mandating that private industry do more with less, yet when they need something (want something) they just raise taxes. Typical of a bunch of liberals.



The present mandate of 22.7 mpg was put in place in 1989;I do believe that was during the reign of George the first.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/gb41.html

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Meanwhile as the mileage of the mixture continues to decrease, the guberment is demanding all cars to get 35 mpg.

By 2020. That's in 13 years!!!

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

I agree that in order to get that kind of milage that the cars are going to need to weigh far less. My old 67 Beetle got 32 mpg, 72 Plymouth Cricket got 28 in town and 40 cruising, Datsun B210 got 45, 73 AMC Gremlin w/258 six cyl got 26, and my best car I ever had with great performance was a 72 Triumph GT6+. It got 47 mpg @ 70 mph and it was a small 6 cylinder. All of these cars wouldn't pass tests of emissions or saftey of todays standards. Notice that all these cars were built before the first gas crisis and the introduction of the EPA?

Several years ago a report from the EPA said the air and water of the country has cleaned up better than they expected. However the media quickly dropped the story and nothing more was heard. I just figured that the higher ups of the EPA felt threatened that the next thing for them would be to downsize and a loss of their operating budget. So make the media drop the report and continue to make us spend more to meet more strict standards.

The American citizen is spoiled with idiot proof cars. All the gadets and gizmoes for safety has done nothing but take the fear away of being in a crash. All this has done is made drivers take much more risks while they drive. At least this is my opinion.

I'm just not sure how they will do it to get the milage out of a 50/50 mixture of gas and ethanol, but I'm sure the foreign manufactures will.

Watched a program on Futurecars,,,,,,there was a diesel powered car that got over 100mpg @ 140 mph. BTW,,,,,that didn't happen in the USA.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

How about this. If the US Navy switched all their ships to run on biodiesel they would use up all the available fuel produced. But I don't see that in the program. Again, what are those who are creating mandates on others doing to clean up their own mess? I would have started there. Sends the right message.

Not a chance in he11.


FWIW as we "select" our facts,

"Latest Developments
In 2003, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued a final rule which raised the CAFE standard for light trucks. The rule set standards at 21.0 mpg for model year 2005, 21.6 mpg for model year 2006, and 22.2 for model year 2007.

In August 2005, President Bush proposed breaking the light truck category into six sub-categories and setting mpg standards for each, ranging from 28.4 for the 2011 model year for the smallest "truck" to 21.2 for the largest.

In March 2006, NHTSA published the final rule, which slightly increased fuel economy standards for SUVs, minivans and pickup trucks for 2008-2011. It did not affect heavy trucks, such as the Ford F-250, or passenger cars. "

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/i/cafe_standards.htm




Ethanol is not the long range future. This holds some promise. I believe this is how the Germans created fuel during the final years of WWII?

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ch...7F2-99DF-37013D71D6975B0E&modsrc=most_popular

 

[Nos4r2]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Saab already make a car that can be run on a very high proportion of ethanol but they warn that while running on it you'll get approx 30% lower MPG figures (but 30% more power).

www.saabbiopower.co.uk for a bit more info.

BTW, why do you guys get a 35mpg madate when ours is 50? Even after the difference in our gallon size doesn't take yours above about (British) 37mpg

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Saab already make a car that can be run on a very high proportion of ethanol but they warn that while running on it you'll get approx 30% lower MPG figures (but 30% more power).

www.saabbiopower.co.uk for a bit more info.

BTW, why do you guys get a 35mpg madate when ours is 50? Even after the difference in our gallon size doesn't take yours above about (British) 37mpg

The "Gotta have lots of horsepower" attitude is why gas milage is so hard to achieve. Don't know why we need all those horses under the hood. Especially in town driving,,,,,,,,nobody ever uses it! Those that never use it will drive 25 in a 35 zone and then run 80 in a 65 zone on the interstate. I've seen it many times and still don't know why they drive that way.

Nos,,,the way our government operates is why we tend to follow instead of lead. Texans can build thousands of miles of fench in a month, but after 160 years,,,,,we still don't have a fence on the border. This is by no means any fault of Texas (Thanks for the history lesson JB)

Another thing the UK is advance in is the elimination of R22 freon in the year 2010 while the US is 2020. Yep,,,,,we follow.

 

[rolmops]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

The "Gotta have lots of horsepower" attitude is why gas milage is so hard to achieve. Don't know why we need all those horses under the hood. Especially in town driving,,,,,,,,nobody ever uses it! Those that never use it will drive 25 in a 35 zone and then run 80 in a 65 zone on the interstate. I've seen it many times and still don't know why they drive that way.

Nos,,,the way our government operates is why we tend to follow instead of lead. Texans can build thousands of miles of fench in a month, but after 200+ years,,,,,we still don't have a fence on the border.

Another thing the UK is advance in is the elimination of R22 freon in the year 2010 while the US is 2020. Yep,,,,,we follow.

Mayfloat, your theory about why we follow in these matters limps a bit.
It is the power of for profit industrial interests that effectively slows down government through the lobbying system. Our government works for powerful business interests and not necessarily for national interests.
Accusing government is not fair,unless you want to accuse yourself of voting for representatives who work for special interest over and above national interest.

 

[licketdsplit756]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

as long as we continue to fight in these wars. the energy used to keep america alive.petrolium. and other countries as well..when japan bombed pearl harbor they do because we cut of there supply of petrolium. they could not keep the country running. read that they only had enough fuel to last 8 months. at the price on one bollistic missle. or one sidwinder. i could have fuel for my car that would last me a good part of my life.the cost we pay for freedom. 6yr vet uss astabula.

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Mayfloat, your theory about why we follow in these matters limps a bit.
It is the power of for profit industrial interests that effectively slows down government through the lobbying system. Our government works for powerful business interests and not necessarily for national interests.
Accusing government is not fair,unless you want to accuse yourself of voting for representatives who work for special interest over and above national interest.

Ya don't say!

 

[JB]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Just a little nit to pick, SS.

Our current border with Estados Unis Mexico dates from 1849, hardly 200 years ago. Before that part of what is now Texas, all of New Mexico, Arizona and part of California were Mexico.

Prior to 1836 (still not 200 years ago) all of Texas was in Mexico. Texas was saturated with Americans, mostly illegal trespassers. When the Mexican Government made it too hot for them they rebelled, won their Independence and became a Republic. Until 1845 that part of our border was with Texas, not Mexico.

While this topic is irrelevant to the thread I think it is important that citizens be correctly informed before they attack our government.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Just a little nit to pick, SS.

Our current border with Estados Unis Mexico dates from 1849, hardly 200 years ago. Before that part of what is now Texas, all of New Mexico, Arizona and part of California were Mexico.

Prior to 1836 (still not 200 years ago) all of Texas was in Mexico. Texas was saturated with Americans, mostly illegal trespassers. When the Mexican Government made it too hot for them they rebelled, won their Independence and became a Republic. Until 1845 that part of our border was with Texas, not Mexico.

While this topic is irrelevant to the thread I think it is important that citizens be correctly informed before they attack our government.

Thanks JB for clearing that up, Now I've had my coffee, I think my brain might be functioning. I'll post a correction on the last page.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Mandates on mpg and ethanol

Just a little nit to pick, SS.

Our current border with Estados Unis Mexico dates from 1849, hardly 200 years ago. Before that part of what is now Texas, all of New Mexico, Arizona and part of California were Mexico.

Prior to 1836 (still not 200 years ago) all of Texas was in Mexico. Texas was saturated with Americans, mostly illegal trespassers. When the Mexican Government made it too hot for them they rebelled, won their Independence and became a Republic. Until 1845 that part of our border was with Texas, not Mexico.

While this topic is irrelevant to the thread I think it is important that citizens be correctly informed before they attack our government.

Luv yer style: JB, Nothing like a few actual facts to cause some critical thinkin', n' thoughtfull people like: SS react accordingly. I try ta do the same from time to time here on DC, but I lack yer polite n' thoughtful demeanor. If I ever grow up: I wanna be jus like you. Problem is: might be too late fer an old dog like me to grow up! JR