resin mixing tips and techniques

salty87

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i've used poly resin on a few small projects before. nothing in the gallon+ range though. i know you need to mix in small batches, it sets quicker on hotter days, wear protective gear...

how about some tips for mixing and dealing with it? gloves, brushes and rollers get sticky, the jugs get nasty, don't want to slop it all over or get any on the hull/trailer. pouring ounces and squirting drops isn't as easy as it sounds, especially with gear on.

are you mixing it in the hull?
my wife's kitchen scale is still ok but do measuring spoons really work better? any better measuring ideas?

any other tips for working with this stuff?
 

SHEP#1

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I noticed in another thread (sorry cant remember the thread) it had references to how to fix a hole in the hull - anyway -it showed a few times the process of mixing - they had what looked like a gallon jug and a smaller quart jug. Simple one pump of each resulted in the perfect premix.....
 

Chris1956

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Shep, The "dual pump" setup is for epoxy resin which has a 3::1 or other ratio. Poly resin is 12 drops hardener per oz of resin. I never saw a pump for that ratio, although they likely have them commercially.

Salt, I usually mix poly resin in 1 qt batches, and simply go thru the counting of drops, or use the 1/4 gallon marking on the hardener tube as an aproximate mix.
 

96mk9lsc

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I'm a novice at fiberglass, so take this for what it's worth :) I used a 4-oz jelly jar to measure the resin, then counted drops of hardner into a separate small glass jar. Combined the two in an aluminum bread baking pan and mixed. That amount was just right to work with in fifteen minutes before it started to gel. Acetone worked well for cleaning the bread pan, brush and roller, although it's kind of pricey. I usually had latex gloves on, but a couple times not. I've been through a little over a gallon of resin using the 4-ozs at a time method, and two gallons of acetone for clean-up and prep. All of the spreading of the resin was done with either a 2" or 3" brush, probably could have made better time with a roller or wider brush, especially on the deck and stringer coating work.
 

salty87

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

...Salt, I usually mix poly resin in 1 qt batches, and simply go thru the counting of drops, or use the 1/4 gallon marking on the hardener tube as an aproximate mix.

damn, you must be like edward scissorhands, lol. i was mixing 4-5 oz batches but i think my jug said 14 drops of hardener. the first batch started setting up in about 5 mins, plus it was close to 90 here.

i was using an aluminum pan too, that worked good. i had a small 2-3" roller but only 1 and the first batch ate it. it worked good while it lasted.

how much can you back off on the hardener to increase the time you have before it starts to set?
 

Robj

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Being north of the border I tend to think metric, in litres. I used two litre buckets, and when it was half full then it had 1 litre in it. Not exact but close enough. For the hardener the supplier gave me plastic graduated shot glasses. I used anywhere from 7 to 10 ml hardener for 1 litre of resin. If it was hot outside, I used 7, if it was cooler, 65 degrees F I used about 10 ml. The shot glasses worked well and did not have to do the counting drops stuff. Have lots of cheapo brushes on hand, disposable gloves, extra buckets and graduated shot glasses. You will go through many. Don't glass in direct sunlight, it will cause the resin to kick prematurely. Use a plastic resin roller to roll out the air bubbles, and laminating resin if plan to do multiple lay-ups. If you buy supplies from a fibreglass or plastics dealer they will have everything you need plus good advice.

Have a great day,

Rob.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

You can normally use from 1% to 2% catalyst safetly with most resins, going with more or less can create problems even if the resin gets hard.

You can use a bucket, coffee can, or whatever you can find that may be the right size. Mark the container at a known spot for 1qrt. 1/2g. or what ever amount you want, a baby bottle or measuring spoon will work for the catalyst. All you need to do then is fill it to the line with resin and dump in the catalyst, then mix well.

Smaller plastic buckets can be purchased at a paint store, they're already marked and when the resin cures it will just pop right out of it so they can be reused. If you can't find a container small enough for catalyst at the paint store, then go to a Pharmacy, they carry small measuring devices calibrated in CC's

If the containers are marked in grams, CC's or ML's then its much easier to do the math for the correct amount of catalyst. 100 CC's of resin needs 1 CC of catalyst for 1%, 2CC's for 2%, just scale it up for larger amounts from there.

If you think you need to use less than 1% because its hot out, then mix less resin at a time , don't use less catalyst. Do the work in the shade, never in the sun.

Get the cheapest brushes you can find and get a box of them, same thing with paint rollers, just get the cheapest six pack (not refering to beer, you should already have plenty of that on hand from the planning stage of this project). Use gloves, the thin cheap ones work, but tend to get holes in them easily and then you get resin on your hands anyway, so I try to use the slightly thicker ones, dishwashing gloves will work.

I use very little acetone and sometimes none, I just throw all the stuff away after it gets used, it can be cheaper than using acetone and unless you clean everything thoroughly, it will have hard spots in it any way.

When doing areas where you don't want get drips below it, wet the glass out on a board or something and then lift the glass up and put it in place. This needs to be done fairly quickly, as the glass will begin to fall apart as the resin soaks in. If cloth or roving is use in this type of repair then you don't have to worry about it falling apart as much. Don't over work the mat though, if you do, it will turn to a sloppy mess before you can pick it up. Don't get too much resin on the brush or it will drip, and always tape off and cover anything of value. For small odd shaped repairs or when filling a small low spot, just pull the mat apart in your fingers and wet it out with brush as you put it in place. This way you can shape it to fit the area with the brush and there will be less to sand off later.

If you plan on doing an entire floor or other large area and roving or cloth is being used, then use a squeegee to move the resin around and get the air out. To do this roving or cloth needs to be the top layer, a plastic bondo type spreader will work (use a large one), but don't push too hard or you'll remove too much resin. You can do a whole floor very fast this way. Also if needed you can do several layers of glass very easily, just wet out the wood (it's best to have precoated it and let it get hard) and lay down each layer, a paint roller may make it easier to wet out the mat, but not always. Don't worry about the air as you're wetting out each layer, just get enough resin on it, the squeegee will remove the air and excess resin from the layers rapidly.

Never use cloth or roving as the first layer as it will result in a poor bond, always use mat first, then whatever you want on top of it. Cloth is rarely use used by boat builders, the cost is too high for the strength it adds and because its so thin, you need many layers to build much strength. Boat builders use roving or stitched products, they're much better for most jobs and cost less.

Round the edges of all wood so the glass will form around it, use putty to fill a sharp inside radius, or you can use a wood strip cut to the right size.

To prep a surface, grind it thoroughly with course sand paper and not by hand. Get a small grinder at everyones favorite cheap tool store (H/F) with a stack of 36 grit discs and get a couple of cutoff wheels while you're there. Clean the surface before you start grinding or you may just move around wax and oils while grinding. Part of the "polyester doesn't bond well" line of thought, comes from poor prep work and using cloth as the first or only layer. It actually sticks very well to a sanded and clean surface when mat is used.
 

Robj

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Ondavr,

I hate to second guess you, because I know of your expertise in this area. But my supplier told me that the 1% is by weight, and for 1 litre, it requires 8 mls of hardener. That is the ratio that I was using when it was 70 degrees F outside and it worked fine. When I used the 10% by volume, I found my resin was kicking too fast which is when he informed me that it is by weight not volume. Which one is correct?? Also I found that the plastics shops were much cheaper than a paint shop, and they have everything. The guy that I dealt with in Vancouver had the best prices in town, and he has been in the business for many years and gives great advice.

Have a great day,

Rob.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Measuring either way will work, in the lab we weigh it, in the field we go by volume, it's close enough. We formulate resins for 1% or more of catalyst so that it is easier to measure the correct amount and get it mixed in well. Most resins are formulated to be used through spray equipment and getting accurate catalyzation below 1% can be difficult if the equipment isn't in perfect working order. We like to see it used at 1.2 to 2.4 % for best results. Gel times on resins sold retail should be formulated to be at the middle of that range, 1.8% or so. This way you can use more or less depending on the conditions, warm, cold, thick, thin, large job or small. But many times the decision is made on price not necissarily with the user in mind. If you need to mix at 1% and it's too fast, then you have no place to go, you're at about the lowest level you can safely use. Another plus for longer gel times is that they normally give the resin a longer shelf life. One reason they may want to sell short gel time products is that they may have fewer complaints, because no matter how little catalyst is used it will get hard.

We make the resins and sell them to the retailers, they repackage them and sell them to you, we make what they want to buy.
 

Robj

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

Ondarvr,

Do you have dealers of your products up here in Vancouver? When I was glasing the 8mls per litre worked the best, but it was around 70 degrees F outside. When it was warmer I may have even went down to 7mls without any problems. Just my $0.02.

Have a great day,

Rob.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

One of main retail outlets in the Vancouver area that is very well stocked and knowlegeable was selling our products a few years ago, thats when the US $ was high and it became too costly to buy our products so they switched to another supplier. Our main Distributor in BC only sells our products wholesale to fabricators, not retail.
As the % of catalyst drops, it becomes more difficult to thoroughly mix it into the resin, if not mixed well, you end up with under catalyzed areas, these under castalyzed areas may get hard, but that doesn't mean they cured properly. For testing in the lab we mix each sample for at least 1 minute, if we don't the results aren't consistent. All tests are done at 77F.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

It's hard to say what you might need, we don't know what it is you want to do. You might want to start another thread with your topic so nobody gets confused.
 

salty87

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

can't thank you guys enough for the info

ondarvr, you mentioned wetting out the wood and letting it set first. sounds like it will need sanding before laying it in the hull?

i'm pretty sure i've read that you thin the resin more to seal the wood?

thx
 

Robj

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I have thinned resin by 10 to 15% with acetone to seal wood. If you are using laminating resin for multiple lay-ups, which you should, and plan on glassing it in within the next week or so, just wipe it down with acetone and you are good to go. You will notice that it will get sticky. No sanding required, just make sure there aren't any rough spots that would prevent the glass from adhering to the wood, and create air bubbles within the lay-up.

Have a great day

Rob.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

You need to be carefull when thinning resin (or gel coat), adding acetone and/or styrene will lower the viscosity, but it also degrades the resin. Styrene will cross link with the resin, but its less water, UV and crack resistant, it can actaully be brittle. Adding 5% typically won't create a problem you'll notice, but adding much more can. Sanding the surface is a good idea and will help the bond. Catalyze the resin at the lower end of the scale, roll it on and let it soak in, you don't want it to puddle on the surface, but you need to let it soak up all it can. Let the resin at least start to get hard before putting the glass down, if you don't, the wood will suck resin out of the glass leaving dry spots.
 

BillP

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I have to cherp in about glassing. Mfgs do not commonly mix hot pots (aka "internal mix") of resin and then spray it. Most common is an external mix gun where the resin comes from one source and the catalyst comes from another. The catalyst is mixed into the resin at the nozzle just after being shot from the gun. The trigger engages catalyst first and last which makes sure all the resin gets catalyzed. Quantities are adjustable on the gun for both resin and catalyst. Quite often they use red catalyst which gives them visuals on whether catalyst is actually spraying or not. This is how most pro builders wet (not vac bag) the glass for laminating hulls, decks, etc..

Also, use a ribbed roller to get the air bubbles out. Squeegees are best for moving resin around to wet the glass out and to work it down into difficult areas. At their best they get the large bubbles out and leave the small ones. Ribbed rollers get all the bubbles out without pushing resin away. If you're doing a glass job get one of the small plastice ones for $20 and it will last a lifetime of home boat projects.

ondarvr:
Since not to exceed precisely 2% for catalyst is posted...If a person uses 3% catalyst...precisely what % is the laminate weakened or problems caused if the layup is exactly 50% resin on the fabric of your choice...and laminating done at at 77F? Or what % of catalyst weakens polyester resin .01%? I'm asking only about the brand you rep.
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

BillP

Some the questions are answered in a different thread.

Correct, most don't (none that I know of) use a hot pot for resin (some still do use them for gel coat though), they use equipment made by Magnum Venus (MVP), Binks or a few other smaller suppliers. This type of spray equipment does not meter or mix catalyst as well at lower %'s (1% or less), so we recommend to stay in the middle of the range, 1.2 to 2.4. If the chemistry of polyesters wasn't so forgiving the external mix of this type of equipment wouldn't be possible. Hoping that two different products would mix completely by two fans colliding in mid air is not logical, they do mix well enough for it work though.

Squeegees can do a very good job of getting air out of large flat areas, they don't work well around any sharper details though, that's why I said it would work on the floor.

It can be difficult to give exact figures for over and under catalyzing, partly because each resin has a different chemistry and may be affected more or less by it. But as a general rule, the better the quality of the resin and the more you expect from it, the more important the catalyst % is. Normally below 1% and above 2.5% you can start to see differences in cure in the lab at 77F.

If a resin has a gel time of 15 minutes and you increase the temp by 15F or so, it will cut the gel time of the resin by about half or 7.5 minutes. If you decrease the temp 15F, it about doubles the gel time or 30 minutes. This is not exact and every resin will be a little different, but the temp has a dramatic affect. Resin relies on heat to help complete the curing process, if there's not enough heat generated by the resin during exotherm, then it won't cure completely, if too much heat is generated, then it weakens the resin.

There are data sheets for every resin that will state what type of catalyst to use and what the range is, most people, including the people using the resins never see them to know exactly how that resin was designed to be used. Most of what people learn in a glass shop is from others that work there, and very few of those have had any actual training. Rookies are typically trained by the guy that got fired last week for doing a bad job.
 
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BillP

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

BillP

Some the questions are answered in a different thread.

Correct, most (none that I know of) use a hot pot for resin (some still do use them for gel coat though), they use equipment made by Magnum Venus (MVP), Binks or a few other smaller suppliers. This type of spray equipment does not meter or mix catalyst as well at lower %'s (1% or less), so we recommend to stay in the middle of the range, 1.2 to 2.4. If the chemistry of polyesters wasn't so forgiving the external mix of this type of equipment wouldn't be possible. Hoping that two different products would mix completely by two fans colliding in mid air is not logical, they do mix well enough for it work though.

Squeegees can do a very good job of getting air out of large flat areas, they don't work well around any sharper details though, that's why I said it would work on the floor.

It can be difficult to give exact figures for over and under catalyzing, partly because each resin has a different chemistry and may be affected more or less by it. But as a general rule, the better the quality of the resin and the more you expect from it, the more important the catalyst % is.
If a resin has a gel time of 15 minutes and you increase the temp by 15F or so, it will cut the gel time of the resin by about half or 7.5 minutes. If you decrease the temp 15F, it about doubles the gel time or 30 minutes. This is not exact and every resin will be a little different, but the temp has a dramatic affect. Resin relies on heat to help complete the curing process, if there's not enough heat generated by the resin during exotherm, then it won't cure completely, if too much heat is generated, then it weakens the resin.

There are data sheets for every resin that will state what type of catalyst to use and what the range is, most people, including the people using the resins never see them to know exactly how that resin was designed to be used. Most of what people learn in a glass shop is from others that work there, and very few of those have had any actual training. Rookies are typically trained by the guy that got fired last week for doing a bad job.


I guess I'll go to the other thread for other info posted but that's very interesting man. The only time squeegees work ok for removing bubbles is on very thin cloth...up to approx 10oz and 2-3 layers. An untrained eye will never see the pin bubbles that rib rollers remove. The bubble problem is magnified 10x when doing mat and roving woven in alternating layers.

There are rookies for sure...in boat mfg as well as chemical mfg plants and labs. What a few chem reps "recommend" and what actually works in the real world can be very different. Anyway, you have made very generic statements about "lab" result concerning over 2% catalyst. Please post specific details on the % strength lost by using 3% catalyst at 77F on at least ONE resin you have lab results for...

bp
 

ondarvr

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Re: resin mixing tips and techniques

I'll try to get some "LAB" results for you. If you would like, I can have you talk directly with the chemists that formulate these products. A person that doesn't know how to use a roller will leave a tremendous amount air just like a person that doesn't know to use a squeegee will. Squeegeeing multiple layers has never been a problem for me, or those that have worked for me.

As to what tech reps recommend and what works in the field. Well, there are some Chemists that never, or rarely see how products are actually used in glass shops. As for me, I started in middle school building and repairing boats, then progressed on to making many other things and moved up the ladder until I was a plant manager for 20 years. That's all before I went to work in technical service for the second largest gel coat company in the world, now I work for by far the largest in the world. In my current position I've done tech service for most of the largest boat builders in North America, spending weeks in their plants working on improving production methods and solving problems.

When trying to improve production methods we frequently run into people who refuse to believe that there are better, or more correct methods than what they've been using for the last 30 years. These are normally small (some are larger) dirty shops that have many problems and poor working conditions. When you try to give them a way to get better more reliable results, they tend to very defensively claim that those methods won't work, without ever trying them.

Shops that are surviving are ones that are adopting better methods and are getting the best results from the products they use, they're always striving to improve and educate the employees on how the products are designend to be used.

If anyone wants to download and application manual PM me, it's large so you need a high speed connection. It will go into more detail on things dicussed in the thread.
 
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