Advice about illegal fireworks

mudmagnet63

Petty Officer 1st Class
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231
Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

OK Gentlemen let's face it. One mans Commercial grade is another mans Lady finger. As stated ealier in the forum you MUST BE LICENSED to buy commercial. If he is licensed he is within his rights to use them. I see no one has posed that question yet? Do fires happen Yes. Do accidents happen in fast boats YES. Do accidents happen in canoes YES. Should either be outlawed because someone else may be harmed. Jet boats are loud, canoes quiet so lets ban all loud boats cause it might offend or could hurt someone else.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

No, he isn't within his rights even if he is licensed. Without a permit to store and/or discharge the fireworks within his jurisdiction, he may not do either of these things and I doubt you could find a fire marshall anywhere, who is going to permit someone to store and/or discharge in a residential neighborhood.

The simple fact of the matter is, whether the fireworks meet the definition of commercial grade or not, if the quantity and type are as described by the OP (and there is no reason to believe they are not), the neighbor is in the wrong.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

Thanks for the advise.It was ment to be a joke,I realy did not think any one in there right mind would ever do it.

I knew you meant it as a joke, I was just saying be careful how you word things like that. Although I doubt any DA would ever take you to task on that, there are some DA's out there that are real a-holes, and it's been done before. There was a case about 6 years ago in CA where a 19yo kid got sentanced to 25 years for something similar (although in that case, I think the DA went for it because the kid was a racist as was the comment, and hence the mandatory sentance of 25 yrs).

... and I'm not sure how in his right mind he is. After all, he's not going to talk to his neighbor because he doesn't want to start a fued, so instead he's just going to do the ONE thing that will definately start a fued (sending a threatening letter and calling the cops on him). This is just going to end badly for thefairlaneman. First of all, the city is more likely to side with his neighbor because after all, they are getting more revenue from him and his thousand-dollar block party permits, not to mention that he's probably well connected if he's having such large parties, and the cops have already shown that they are siding with him. That also says alot about how big (or little) the fireworks really are, because if they were really THAT big, the cops would advise him to take it elsewhere.

It's not the concern over fire damage that's petty, it's how he wants to handle it that's petty. Pissing off your neighbor when you don't have to is never a good idea. Now that's assuming there even IS any fire hazard. It's raining in Asheville tonight and is supposed to rain the day before and remain cloudy and cool that day. The leaves, grass, and ground will all be wet. For those of you not paying attention, that means he's not really concerned about a fire hazard, most likely he doesn't like the noise or the cleanup. Neither one of those warrants such a severe reaction.
 

arboldt

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Aug 25, 2007
Messages
417
Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

Several years ago when my father was still alive and a Winter Texan, we visited him in the Lower Valley between Christmas and New years. Apparently it's quite a Latino thing to fire guns into the air at New Year's. Into the air, not at anyone, so it's harmless tradition and fun, right? The next day we read in the newspaper about an elderly gentlemen killed in his own living room -- it seems a bullet went far into the air, and by the time it came back to ground level was travelling at almost muzzle velocity (basic principle of physics). It came down through the victim's roof and into the top of his forehead, right behind his eyes. Death was almost instantaneous. As far as I know, they never could identify who fired that particular shot.

Point is, there are always unintended consequences.

At our cottage, we watch the fireworks several people around the lake shoot off. Every year we see a few misfire and get caught in a treetop. And for 2 - 3 weeks afterward, I have to collect rocket and shell casings and wire and wood launch guides before we can go swimming. So far my grandkids haven't impaled a foot on one, but it's been close a few times. Yeah, I'd miss the fireworks, but I also know we'd be safer.

Accidents happen with with professional fireworks shows. 2 or 3 years ago a guy was killed at the civic fireworks show (in Charlevoix, I think) when instead of heading skyward, a shell went horizontal across the harbor and into a spectator's gut.

Most people just don't appreciate they're (literally) playing with fire.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

We've had the same problem here in New Orleans, Arboldt. People just don't realize that the terminal velocity of a falling bullet is high enough to cause it to penetrate the human body.

Your also right on the mark in regard to accidents happening even when professionals are handling fireworks. A friend of mine lost both his father and uncle to an explosion in Bonita Springs, Fl some years ago. All they were doing at the time of the explosion was moving some fireworks from one truck to another. While I don't know if either was a licensed "shooter," I do know that they were working under the supervision of one, and had both been doing pyro in the entertainment business for years.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

We've had the same problem here in New Orleans, Arboldt. People just don't realize that the terminal velocity of a falling bullet is high enough to cause it to penetrate the human body.

They probably don't realize that because it's not true. This was on mythbusters two weeks ago. The only way a bullet fired up in the air can even break skin is if it's fired at an angle that maintains it's ballistics trajectory. The terminal velocity of a falling bullet wouldn't even leave a deep bruise.
 

rndn

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

You beat me to it SgtMaj. I saw the same episode.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

They probably don't realize that because it's not true. This was on mythbusters two weeks ago. The only way a bullet fired up in the air can even break skin is if it's fired at an angle that maintains it's ballistics trajectory. The terminal velocity of a falling bullet wouldn't even leave a deep bruise.
Well, I for one am not going to stand there and find out.:eek:
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

By the way, the case that arboldt mentioned was also mentioned in that show, and it was a confirmed case, but as stated before, the bullet was fired at an angle that maintained it's ballistics trajectory, and the guy was in his garage, and the person who fired the shot was caught, and he fired the shot from about a half-mile away.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

We have a law here in AZ called "Shannons Law" for that very reason.

If you get caught firing into the air (chances are pretty good you will-they have listening devices all over the city) and it kills someone, it's murder one.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

We have a law here in AZ called "Shannons Law" for that very reason.

If you get caught firing into the air (chances are pretty good you will-they have listening devices all over the city) and it kills someone, it's murder one.

It would pretty much be impossible to prove premeditated intent to murder...

Murder2 or manslaughter could be (and most likely would) prosecuted in such a case, but there's no chance of a murder1 conviction.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

The myth busters show was, in fact, busted by a guy by the name of Dr. David Mohler, who is an international expert on falling bullet cases. The simple fact of the matter is that there have been numerous deaths, including Amy Silberman (New Orleans, New Year's Eve 1994), as a result of guns being fired into the air.

Don't believe everything that you see on TV.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

"Pre meditated" is up for debate. It has not been tested yet. "You were warned of the consequences of discharging your firearm into the air". "That shows premeditation", as some law scholars believe.

Convicted of M1, or not, you are still going to jail, for a long time. I would not want to be the courts Guinea Pig.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

Actually, they had him ON the show... and in ALL those numberous cases, those guns were fired at an ANGLE that maintained their ballistics trajectory (that means that they are travelling at a MUCH MUCH higher velocity than if they are fired straight up and fall back down at terminal velocity.)
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

"Pre meditated" is up for debate. It has not been tested yet. "You were warned of the consequences of discharging your firearm into the air". "That shows premeditation", as some law scholars believe.

Convicted of M1, or not, you are still going to jail, for a long time. I would not want to be the courts Guinea Pig.

Not very long ago there was an 18yo guy who shot and killed a 4yo girl with a shotgun. He was holding the shotgun out the window of his car, and the car jerked and it caused the gun to go off. It was evening and dark out, and by all accounts he never saw the little girl. By all accounts he was so wreckless that he probably should have been convicted of M2, but because there was no intent there, they only convicted him of manslaughter. The judge sentenced him to 3 years probation and no jail time.

When it comes to taking the life of another, intent is everything in the criminal courts.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

This will explain it all about a projectile fired upwards.
__________________________________________
Vertically Shot Bullet Landing Speed

name Davidstatus educatorgrade 9-12location PAQuestion - In the real world, (not the physics world of no air resistance), how do I calculate the speed of a bullet that was shot straight into the air when it returns to Earth. For example, say a rifle had a muzzle velocity of an M-16, what would the bullet's speed when it comes straight back down. On the news one sees celebrations in the Middle East of shooting into the air. Just how dangerous is that?--------------------------------------------------------------
The upper limit is of course as you point out (no air resistance). Including air resistance is a much more complex calculation because it depends upon many other factors -- air density as a function of height, the shape of the bullet, the rotational speed of the bullet, whether the bullet is wobbling or tumbling in the way down Really a complicated mess to calculate, but for the moment DO ignore air resistance. A rule of thumb in ALL physics/chemistry/engineering is do an order of magnitude calculation to see what, if any, more complicated calculation may be necessary -- but always carry out "reality checks" to make sure you're on track. Let's consider a rifle bullet vs. a hailstone (spherical). RIFLE BULLET: A typical muzzle velocity of a rifle (google search) is 3000 ft/sec = 1000 m/sec (notice I'm rounding here because we are just looking for where the decimal falls.A typical bullet mass is 120 grains [wierd units, but 1 grain = 0.065 gm] = 7.8 gm = 10 gm (close enough). Now a "reality check". The density of lead is 11.4 gm/cm^3 = 10 gm/cm^3 (close enough). So the volume of the bullet is: volume = mass / density = 10 gm / 10 (gm/cm^3) = 1 cm^3. That's probably pretty conservative, but OK for an order of magnitude. Remember the shell casing doesn't count -- only the projectile. In the absence of air and a perfect world, kinetic energy is conserved, so the bullet weighing 10 gm will hit the ground after a vertical trajectory at a speed of 1000 m/sec. OUCH!!! Let's calculate the energy. From the muzzle velocity (1000 m/sec) and the bullet mass (10 gm = 10^-2 kg) and K.E. = 1/2 m(v)^2 we get 1/2 (10^-2)*(1000)^2 = 0.5*10^-2+6 = 5x10^3 = 5000 Joules. HAILSTONE: A spherical hailstone weighing 10 gm has a volume of 10 cm^3 since the density is1 gm/cm^3. REALITY CHECK: The volume = 10 cm^3 = 4/3 *pi* r^3. So r^3 = 2.4 cm^3 or a radius of r = 1.3 cm or a diameter of 2.6 cm (a fairly nominal hailstone -- about an inch in diameter).The potential energy of a hailstone weighing 10 gm = 10^-2 kg falling from 10 km is: P.E. = m*g*h =10^-2 * 9.8 * 10 (about 10^-2+1+1 = 10^0 = 1 Joule). Its velocity assuming complete conversion of the P.E. to K.E. = 1/2*m*(v)^2 gives: 1 = 1/2x10^-2*(v)^2 or v^2 = 200 m^2 or about 15 m / secCompared to 1000 m/sec for the bullet. Now if you want to refine the estimate further a fair assumption would be to assume that air resistance would be proportional to the cross sectional area of the object and the time of flight. That is, the longer the object is in the air the greater will be the drag from the atmosphere until the projectile reaches its maximum terminal velocity. Even without doing the calculation, assuming the bullet is a cylinder (you can vary the length / diameter ratio) and the hailstone is spherical, the air resistance will be much less for the bullet than for the hailstone for two reasons -- cross sectional area, and time of flight. This also gets a bit messy because the bullet experiences drag both going up and down, but the hailstone only experiences drag on the way down. Of course, there are other complicating factors that have been ignored. A big one is that the speed of the hailstone will depend upon whether it is falling in an up-draft, or is being accelerated by being in a down-draft. As to danger there is no question that getting hit by such a spent projectile could be lethal. Actually getting hit by a 1 inch hailstone would be very unpleasant and possibly also fatal.
Vince Calder
_____________________________________________
Talking about making my head hurt.:eek:
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

Yes, that is true but consider also the studies of Julian Hatcher, who found that 30 caliber rounds reach a TV of 300 ft/sec and 50 calber rounds can reach a TV of 500 ft/sec, both of which are fast enough to penetrate the human skull.

Regardless, the point here is that shooting guns into the air is dangerous and can very definately seriously injure or kill a person.
 

SgtMaj

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Re: Advice about illegal fireworks

I think we're so far off topic that we need to just let this topic die instead of padding our post counts like this.
 
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