boats and city ordinance

[arboldt]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Just had a thought... don't know if this is feasible or not...

Could you get one of those temporary garage things. One vehicle wide, basically an aluminum frame with fiberglass 'roof'. I've seen 'em for $500 or so -- maybe could borrow or rent one?

What are the temporary structure setback requirements in Maplewood? If the boat is under cover, would that qualify?

Oh, and on that warning -- they indicated they would do immediate abatement? Make sure the tongue is facing the garage and the trailer is immobilized so they can't just tow it while you fight their redefinition of standard language.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: boats and city ordinance

One note about hearings: At least in my city, the first "hearing" I went to for appeal was a joke... the lawyer playing judge thing for a day made it useless. Only the second hearing or appeal would be done in a real court.

Definitely go to court if you want satisfaction... courts are picky about things like wording of the law. If you get a judgement there, it may be worth it to sue the city to recover any court costs.

 

[joed]

Re: boats and city ordinance

The property line is the property line. The enforment officer can't make up his own rules. If the code says the property line they meant the property line not the front of the house. You should win on this one.
I should say I am not a lawyer and what makes sense does not always win. But it seems pretty clear to me. You should get the the exact wording of the ordinace and make sure it says property line and not something like property line and front of house.

 

[wvit1001]

Re: boats and city ordinance

If you don't like living in a City with all it's rules then move to the country. That's what I did.

Rules like this are meant to control things like people having business on their property working on cars and people having junk trailers and stuff laying around the house. It's hard to understand when you have something nice that doesn't degrade the neighborhood. But if they let you do it then how are they going to stop your neighbor from moving in a piece of junk old boat that ends up sitting in his driveway and rotting away from neglect.

 

[pet575]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I would more closely check the Maplewood codes and see if they provide a definition of property line. Better yet, ask the officer you are dealing with to point you to a written definition of property line.

It may also be defined in the Missouri Revised Statutes: http://www.moga.state.mo.us/STATUTES/STATUTES.HTM

Good luck.

 

[jddenham]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I know that a lot of people are encouraging you to fight this, and they have a point.

However, if you could come up with a solution moving the boat, creating a more aesthetic storage area, etc, it might be more of a win-win situation.

Going through all the court stuff, appeals, etc, are rights that you can exercise, but they come at a cost. Time, money, time, more money, stress, time, dirty looks from neighbors, more money . . . you get the picture . . .

Do you have any options to keep it on your property, but blend it in better?

 

[jeeperman]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Before complying to what some one at the code officer is verbally telling you, you need to see what is written in the law.

Certainly the violation notice you received has the code number that you are violating listed. The office has to back up the laws they are enforcing with a law. Not just what someone down there pulls out of their butt.

Many municipalities use online services such as this one which allows you to search for yourself.

Oh never mind here is the Maplewood ordinances website:

http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=11218&sid=25

 

[jeeperman]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I think this is the law you might have been cited for:
Sec. 19-82. Parking of recreational vehicles and/or trailers.
(a) No person shall park any recreational vehicle and/or trailer used or designed for use as a temporary or permanent dwelling or sleeping quarters, upon any street, alley, highway or other public place between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., for a period of continuous time greater than one hour.
(b) No person shall store, park, use or occupy a recreational vehicle and/or trailer described in paragraph (a) of this section, nor may he authorize or permit any person to do so, on any parcel of land in the city; provided, however, that a recreational vehicle and/or trailer may be stored or parked while not used or occupied if:
(1) The recreational vehicle and/or trailer is parked or stored on the parcel of land at a distance of not less than fifty (50) feet from the front property line and not less than five (5) feet from the side property lines; and
(2) The recreational vehicle and/or trailer is no more than thirty-five (35) feet long and no more than fifteen (15) feet high; and

 

[erikgreen]

Re: boats and city ordinance

If you don't like living in a City with all it's rules then move to the country. That's what I did.

Rules like this are meant to control things like people having business on their property working on cars and people having junk trailers and stuff laying around the house. It's hard to understand when you have something nice that doesn't degrade the neighborhood. But if they let you do it then how are they going to stop your neighbor from moving in a piece of junk old boat that ends up sitting in his driveway and rotting away from neglect.

What's wrong with that? I'd provide a how-to sheet for my neighbors telling them to avoid bayliners, the 470 motors, OMC drives, and boats with cracked blocks.

That way I wouldn't have to travel far to find my next project

Erik

 

[stl]

Re: boats and city ordinance

If you don't like living in a City with all it's rules then move to the country. That's what I did.

Rules like this are meant to control things like people having business on their property working on cars and people having junk trailers and stuff laying around the house. It's hard to understand when you have something nice that doesn't degrade the neighborhood. But if they let you do it then how are they going to stop your neighbor from moving in a piece of junk old boat that ends up sitting in his driveway and rotting away from neglect.

I have no problem following the rules. I knew the rule when I purchased the house. That was one of the benefits of this house. "Oh great a perfect place to store the boat" My problem is now one year and nine months later someone decides to interpret the rules a different way.

 

[joed]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Looks to me like you have a winning case if you choose the fight it.

 

[stl]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I have a temporary place to put the boat. My brother in law will let me put at his place for a little while until I find something more permanent. I really did not want to start accumulating citations. I still would like to question the interpretation of the ordinance. Would the city manager be a good place to start? Or would another city official be better to speak with. I really don't care to have any more communications with the code enforcement officer. That would not be productive, plus I am afraid I will eventually tick him off. Which would not be good. I would prefer to handle this with face to face communication rather than through a legal or appeal procedure. Thanks for all of your feedback so far. Any additional advice will be appreciated.

 

[ocb_dave_ocb]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I have a temporary place to put the boat. My brother in law will let me put at his place for a little while until I find something more permanent. I really did not want to start accumulating citations. I still would like to question the interpretation of the ordinance. Would the city manager be a good place to start? Or would another city official be better to speak with. I really don't care to have any more communications with the code enforcement officer. That would not be productive, plus I am afraid I will eventually tick him off. Which would not be good. I would prefer to handle this with face to face communication rather than through a legal or appeal procedure. Thanks for all of your feedback so far. Any additional advice will be appreciated.

Apparently he doesn't know what he is talking about stating that the front of the house is the property line.. So my house that is only 3,000 SF and my yard is 25,000 SF does that mean I dont own the first 25 linear feet of my yard? That is hands down.. The enforcement officer apparently doesnt know what he is enforcing.. I would go over his head.

 

[arboldt]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Not sure what the size of the municipal government there is. If it's a relatively small suburb, chances are checking with anyone else (like the city manager) would only get referred back to the code enforcement guy. He apparently is willfully ignorant of either the written code or a standard dictionary.

Hate to say it, but this might be a case where a lawyer is the best alternative if you want to take it further.

This may have been covered, but ... is there a garage you could back it into, and leave your car on the driveway?

 

[D445547]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I think this is the law you might have been cited for:
Sec. 19-82. Parking of recreational vehicles and/or trailers.
(a) No person shall park any recreational vehicle and/or trailer used or designed for use as a temporary or permanent dwelling or sleeping quarters, upon any street, alley, highway or other public place between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., for a period of continuous time greater than one hour.
(b) No person shall store, park, use or occupy a recreational vehicle and/or trailer described in paragraph (a) of this section, nor may he authorize or permit any person to do so, on any parcel of land in the city; provided, however, that a recreational vehicle and/or trailer may be stored or parked while not used or occupied if:
(1) The recreational vehicle and/or trailer is parked or stored on the parcel of land at a distance of not less than fifty (50) feet from the front property line and not less than five (5) feet from the side property lines; and
(2) The recreational vehicle and/or trailer is no more than thirty-five (35) feet long and no more than fifteen (15) feet high; and

OK, knowing how the law works myself....if in fact you were cited under this statute and I kinda hope you were...you need to go to the beginning of the section in your cities statute book and look under "definitions" for the words "recreational vehicle" "trailer" and "dwelling" they will be explained in full detail there, if not you can assume the dictionary on these. This being the case your boat AND trailer fall under neither RV (RV as describer under subsection A CLEARLY refers to a "camping/dwelling" vehicle, not just a vehicle....also look up the definition of "vehicle" as long as your at it) or trailer CASE CLOSED!

 

[jeeperman]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Most municipalities have some sort of appeal process that does not involve the regular court system.
A magistrate or mitigation and review. If someone disputes the citation it goes to review, etc. and someone hopefully more knowledgable makes sure the citation applies or not, etc.

If no one ever isputes their citation, the code enforcement officer continues on his merry way thinking his interpretation of the law is good.
The system does not review what you were cited for when you mail in or go pay the fine, they just cash the check.

I would at the very least go over the CEO's head and have his/her super endorse or cancel the citation.

Just make sure everything else on your property is "proper" because the CEO might get pissed off if his super tells him he was wrong. The CEO might then go looking for something else to cite you for.

 

[beerfilter]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Most municipalities have some sort of appeal process that does not involve the regular court system.
A magistrate or mitigation and review. If someone disputes the citation it goes to review, etc. and someone hopefully more knowledgable makes sure the citation applies or not, etc.

If no one ever isputes their citation, the code enforcement officer continues on his merry way thinking his interpretation of the law is good.
The system does not review what you were cited for when you mail in or go pay the fine, they just cash the check.

I would at the very least go over the CEO's head and have his/her super endorse or cancel the citation.

Just make sure everything else on your property is "proper" because the CEO might get pissed off if his super tells him he was wrong. The CEO might then go looking for something else to cite you for.

Exactly the situation they want , since they can just ignore you , and , you have little recourse from thier bureaucratic fiat .
Also the reason a lot of munincipalities do not allow fences in front of your house . Fences with locked gates would prevent free and open access to CEO's , who do not need a warrant in most cases , to enter your property , if the "suspected" violation is visible from the street .

As for the CEO possibly retaliating , COUNT on it . You will most likely be on the codes deptartments ! list from now on , and , you can expect at least a weekly "white glove" .

Been there , done that .
Fighting city hall is possible , and , can be fun .
Just be prepared to get crap from every direction , including possible "attention" from the local constabulary .
Make sure you have enough "crap" of your own to fight back with .
Most of these bureaucrats are not "savory" characters , and , you (or a good P.I. ) can probably find many skeletons for the media to rattle , should reason fail .

FYI , get the dirt BEFORE you start your fight . If you are "on " thier radar , they are a lot more suspicious of anyone asking questions , or , surveiling them .

 

[redfury]

Re: boats and city ordinance

Just went through/going through this myself. I move to Isanti thinking they aren't going to be quite so anal about the use of my BACK YARD. Of course, the 3 boats back there was pushing it....but I digress.

The dumb thing is, in my back yard, ( and I have no garage to speak of ) I can't supposedly even keep my two boats, though if I Had an RV, I could keep one boat and one RV back there, or 1 boat and 2 snowmobiles or ATV's on a trailer. Gotta have them on an improved or impervious surface though! Can't park them on the grass!

Ended up going to court over it because the city sent notices to me, but in someone else's name ( previous owner ) and after a few phone calls to the Community Service Officer and the Lawyer handling my case for the city, it got dropped, but I'm still only allowed one boat on the property. It's stupid! And they want me to screen in the area where the boat is to be parked, but they don't know what kind of screening they want yet. Frustrating to say the least.

Well, the plan is to fence in the whole back yard with a 6ft privacy fence and be done with it. What they can't see, they can't complain about, right?

Erik, I'm really surprised that you caught grief over where you live, that's just completely insane IMHO! I remember the layout of your place. People just have nothing better to do than find something to obsess and complain about, don't they?

Whats worse for me, I can't even use the Temporary garages on my property. It's against code, even though there are plenty of people around me with them up. I mean, whatever happened to doing something tastefully, and not catching grief for it?! Now, if I build a lean to out of old pallets, I can see someone having a right to complain, but really...it's just stupid. My dad built a lean to off the back of our garage, almost as big as the garage to store wood in for our furnace. We NEVER got a complaint, it was up for 10 years before they sold, and I don't know if it came down even then! Why? Neighbors didn't care.

The next time I go out house hunting, I'll be requesting my realtor find the property with the lowest MWM factor around ( Mess with me ).

I mean, I understand wanting the keep the neighborhood from looking like a slum. That's reasonable. But if a guy is trying to fix up an old camper, or an old boat, what-have-you, just let him do it. If it ends up bothering you, go talk to the guy and ask him what the deal with it is. How hard is it, really?! But that's what keeps our little bureaucrats running around like busy little bees. Whatever happened to the Neighbor, in Neighborhood?

 

[stl]

Re: boats and city ordinance

I hate to dig up old stories, but this deal has been eating at me all summer. The inconvienience of storing my boat 40 minutes away has really put a damper of my activities this year. The code enforcement officer said that it was not a complaint but a city wide sweep of boats and utility trailers but no other boats or trailers on my street or block have been moved. I did manage to get the city manager out to my house to take a look. He looked around for a minute and did some measuring . A couple of weeks later I got a letter stating the original code stated above plus another page from from an addition chapter that looks to be intended for a business stating that the trailer must not be able to be seen from normal eye view from the street or the adjacent property. I did 't agree with this but I moved my boat anyway. It is almost like they had to dig up something further to keep me from parking my boat. In the meantime in early April my neighbor put his house up for sale. It is my contention that he is the one that called on me. Since alot of people think they cant sell a house if their neighbor has a boat or a camper in their driveway,Everyone I tell my theory to says that I am right on, At first I said no way since he is a boat owner. But he keeps his boat at a marina. The neighbor has recently moved out, but his house is not sold yet. I am thinking about moving my boat back this weekend in order to enjoy the fall boating expierence I plan to just leave it there. I am also thinking about telling my neighbor to go get bent. He is moving out anyway, plus he is alot smaller than me. LoL Do you think I am out of line?

 

[reelfishin]

Re: boats and city ordinance

One of the reasons we have to deal with these kind of bs zoning laws is because people don't stand up and fight them. There are far more people with boats, RVs, and utility trailers out there. You pay taxes and vote, make sure they realize that.

You may want to look into state laws vs. local ordinances, I went through the same bs last year, it turns out that state law supersedes the local ordinances and you can park any vehicle in your yard regardless of type so long as it's registered, and the law allows one unregistered vehicle per lot.

It took a court ruling, but they gave up. I had a problem neighbor that in the end made themselves a nuisance and brought scrutiny on themselves.
I used to keep several of my boats and trailers at my shop, I moved everything here that was in my name just for spite, when the neighbor was told that there was nothing they could do, that neighbor filed a complaint about my personal truck saying that it was an eyesore and in disrepair since the pickup cap didn't match. That summons was pretty much the last straw in court and it ended the problem for the time being. Once that neighbor just about had a stroke, I returned the larger trailers to my shop where I preferred to keep them anyhow.

They tried to pull the "All vehicles must be parked on pavement" but my pavement is only big enough to park two small cars, I told them the alternative would be to park all of the registered vehicles on the street, that ended that problem pretty quick.

One ordinance that I don't get here is that you are not allowed to fence in any 'Frontage' meaning that you can't fence in your front yard, but you can put up to a 6' stockade fence in the back with no permits needed.

I live in a neighborhood with 110x100' lots, the houses are generally centered, every house but mine has a garage, I wanted to put up a garage, they told me I had to be 30' from any existing building and 15' off the property line, meaning that I cannot even have a 6x6' shed. I got that one changed, but now their fighting my on the removal of an existing shed, (they won't let me remove it), I think the next wind storm may just blow it away.

They keep sending me warnings stating that the shed no longer complies to code, but they will not issue me a permit to fix it or demolish it, and I've been warned that a demolition permit is required. I would think that they would be a bit wary after the last go round in court.

If you find your within the limits of the ordinance, take them to court over any fees incurred along with damages and time wasted. You could also then decline any settlement amount in lieu of the termination of the inspector whom issued the bogus summons. That one usually gets the point across and deters further problems. Document all calls, time spent etc.

If it goes to court, you have the right to know your accuser, so that can also bring out the name of the true problem.