New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

[bowman316]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

i always thought that it was bad to inject the exhaust from outboards directly into the water. That just pollutes the water.

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I don't think it polutes the water, unless it's a 2 stroke....


I'm pretty sure most of the gasses just bubble up to the surface and it polutes the air.....

The oil from a 2 stroke just goes right into the water though...

Boats are still going to exhaust into the water, except now they're going to go through a catylitic convertor in the manifolds or risers, and the engine will be running in "closed loop" mode with an o2 sensor.

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Volvo is using catalytic converters in California NOW.

Here's a picture of the 2008 5.7GiCE

Jebus! Anyone know how much a set of manifolds and risers with the cats and o2 sensors is for that setup? 2500?

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Add three zeros to that $50 and you are on, Kris. But I have to warn you, it's already in effect, so you've already lost the $50,000!

ok bet so in 2009 or 2010 I will take you up we will go to the dealer and you will buy me a 50k cruiser with a dual carbed 4.3's I am sure some locations will follow this rule but it will not be a federal law or mandate... is all i am saying...

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Ya, If you read all the links I put in my 2nd post, you will see that it is infact going to be law in 2010.

Aside from the fact that it will push up the price of boats and especially manifolds/risers, I think this is great news!

Closed loop EFI systems are the best setup by far, Boats will make more power, more torque get better milage, and polute far far less.

AHHH... NEVERMIND I will bow out of this with this final comment. No this is not a copy of the law it is a copy of an epa regluation. the great thing about these are with out the ability to enforce this regulations( which is what congress does by legislating it) it is nothing more then a suggestion...

This is a not a consitutional, civics, or political forum so I will stop talking about this but... I just wanted to stop the scare factor that could be caused by the headline of the post...

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

They would have to pry my smoke belching 2 stroke gas hog outboard from my dead hands....lol!

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

nobody's asking you to give up your old equipment here...

The law will effect NEW boats, just like the automotive industry has done over the years... The EPA will basically say:

Any boat made after date X will not be allowed to polute more than Y (CO2 HC, etc ect)

That means no boats made after 2010 will be carbed. Period.
And most likely every boat sold, inboard and outboard will have cats and o2 sensors.

 

[QC]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I'm amazed that anybody thinks these laws aren't and won't continue to be enforced . . . You need to drive your '57 Chevy down to the car lot, pop the hood, and compare it to flippin' anything . . . Bring us a list of all of the different parts they have and then tell us why those stupid SOBs added them to their cars . . .

Take it from somebody who kinda makes a living on this stuff. It is real . . . Ask Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Cummins, Volvo, John Deere etc. etc. why they were so stupid to pay their $1 Billion settlement with EPA since they didn't have to. Kris, dude, you need to setup your homepage with some sort of news outlet. Any news outlet would help you buddy . . .

 

[Don S]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

You need to drive your '57 Chevy down to the car lot, pop the hood, and compare it to flippin' anything

LOL, yea, you could just open the hood, change all 8 spark plugs with out bleeding, and you only need a ratchet, short extention, and a socket. Today, you can't even see or touch them without removing other parts or taking fenders off.

I would love to drive my 57 Chevy to the car lot, but whimper, whimper, snivel, snivel. I ain't got one.......................... Darn it.

 

[cdnfthree2]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Fortunately, as stated in the Final Rule, if your buying a new boat it will already be there, and if you have an older motor this won't apply to you anyway. These are production regulations, not ownership laws.

 

[Lou C]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I have seen both the Volvo and Indmar cat converters, I understand the need for emissions to be reduced but what is not being said, is that there will be great costs passed along to boaters who run these in salt water. If you ever have to replace one of those manifolds, the cost I bet would make your head spin. And that's just the cost, because of the safety issue, what happens if you pick up a plastic bag on the lower unit, the impeller gets fried and the engine goes into safe mode...and the weather turns bad...I just don't like the idea of that much heat, even if it's shielded and cooled, in a closed motor box. In cars at least the heat can dissipate because the exhaust is open, even so there have been cases of grass fires started by cars with cats parked over high grass.
In fresh water, where manifolds last much longer, the cost issue may not be noticed so much since most original owners will not have to replace them, but in salt water, it'll be just one more reason to go with an OB, at least until they put cats on them!

About the ole 57 Chevy, well that's why I keep driving my old 98 Jeep with the ancient AMC inline six, one easy engine to work on, can do a plug change in a half an hour if you are slow, oil filter sticks straight out, slide under for an oil change and you don't even have to jack it up. And the solid front axle suspension, wonder of wonders, there are zerk fittings on the ball joints and tie rod ends! Had not seen that in years. They are crude to drive, but easy to fix.

 

[littlebookworm]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

The regs are the regs. They've been presented, posted, and are in effect. In all honesty, I have mixed feelings about them. What will happen over the next few years is that older boats will be in greater demand simply to avoid the added costs associated with the new engine/exhaust set-ups. Costs for repairs and parts will go up tremendously, just as they have for car repairs. Decades ago, when I worked in our family's auto repair shop, I could do tune-ups with my eyes closed. As was said, today you can't even find the plugs; never mind replace them easily. On the other hand, the rationale behind all these changes is a good one. If we don't do something to cut down on the pollution, of every kind, that we dump into the water and the air, what will our kids and grandkids have left? I own an older boat because that's what I can afford; and when the costs become too prohibitive, I guess I'll have to give it up. Let's see, I don't drink, smoke, gamble, or chase women. I may give up my boat. Is that a sign of premature senility?

 

[thumpar]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I see a company in the near future making manifolds with not EPA stuff that fit in place of the originals soon. Why would you or could you in some cases pay full price for replacements? Platinum is not cheap. The only way they can prevent it is emissions tests like they do on cars.

 

[mylesm260]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

With cars, they often (I think always now) put an o2 sensor before and after the cat, this allows the ECU to know weather or not the cat is working.

It's posible that they will impliment this type of system in boats aswell.. If your cat fails. a check engine light will come on. IF you get a coast guard safety inspection, they may start looking for this. Or maybe they will implement an OBD-II style of diagnostics connector where govenment officials will be able to plug into your ECU And see if everything is in working order.


IF none of this happens, I bet a lot of people will take their manifolds off and "gut" their cats, which would yield more power and more torque without sacrificing fuel economy (because the o2 sensor will still be there)


And in terms of cost, you can bet it's going to be high. These o2 sensors and cats are cutting edge from what I can understand... Corosian resistance and thermal resiliancy are much much better than what you would find on a car.

As stated in the article, an automototive O2 sensor will crack if it gets wet, and an automotive cat will corode with salt water, so this stuff is going to be "cutting edge" and pricy as hell....

 

[QC]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

It used to be that you could manufacture things that were not emission certified and sell them as Off-road only, well since off-road and marine now have regulations . . . uh . . . I think we're (they're) fooked . . .

Direct from the applicable EPA rule:

Note that in no case may an equipment manufacturer remove a catalyzed muffler from an engine and replace it with a noncatalyzed muffler; this would be a violation of the prohibition against tampering.

We are applying the tampering prohibition in ? 1068.101(b)(1) for evaporative systems. This means that it will be a violation to replace compliant fuel tanks or fuel lines with noncompliant products that effectively disable the applicable emission controls.

(2) [FONT=Melior,Melior][FONT=Melior,Melior]Defeat devices[/FONT][/FONT]. You may not knowingly manufacture, sell, offer to sell, or install, any part that bypasses, impairs, defeats, or disables the control of emissions of any regulated pollutant, except as explicitly allowed by the standard-setting part. We may assess a civil penalty up to $2,750 for each part in violation.

For a manufacturer or dealer, we may assess a civil penalty up to $32,500 for each engine or piece of equipment in violation. For anyone else, we may assess a civil penalty up to $2,750 for each day an engine or piece of equipment is operated in violation.

Whole Flippin' Rule

 

[mthieme]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

What's next?
Our oil furnaces?
Model airplanes?
Kerosene Heaters?
Charcoal grills?
Candles?

If we could figure out how to burn coal cleanly, we could pitch all the other emission crap in the garbage.

 

[Pierutrus]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

Can't wait to see smog stations at all marina's.

 

[QC]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

They already have noise checks at Havasu . . .

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I've hung around the docks and watched many boats fishing boats and runabout boats that just reek of fuel (2 cycle outboards) like old 60's motors that leave pretty colors in the water when the sit and idle in one spot too long, I would think someday electric motors only, Do lakes have a way of cleaning themselves up naturally I can't imagine the amount fuel and oil byproducts from boat engines has accumulated over years and years of heavy traffic.

 

[newbie4life]

Re: New EPA regulations to cover all gas engines in 2010, including boats. RIP Carbs

I hate more government on anything. I live in the sticks, so you'd have to drive in my driveway to see what I'm doing.

Burning firewood that was cut with my Husqvarna Logger's Edition, catching fish with my old 2-stroke that dumps oil residue in the lake, polluting the air, burning my garbage in my burning barrel, weed wackin' with my Crapsman 2-stroke weedwacker..............

Next they're gonna tell me I can't burn shingles, tires or batteries in my burning barrel.