Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Stev, I think the .060 over is the max to ensure the walls are still thick enough to not cause damage to the water jack or cause premature cracking of the cylinder walls...

.250 over will not totally remove the cylinder, it just pushes the walls very thin. I really do not think that they will actually go that far. If the sleve is 1/8 thick, a .250 bore will be too big... I am not knocking you, but I think you are a little overworried about this. I do not blame you one bit. But sleeving it will leave a thin cylinder wall then the sleeve is pressed and sealed in. No worries... if done right...

I'm for sure being paranoid, but when a motor isn't built right it makes you wonder. Doing a lot of fishing 10+ miles offshore on a lake that can go from 2 feet or less to 5-7' in no time flat means you really don't want to lose power on some BS.

All I'm wondering about is what becomes of the crack that's already there rearing it's ugly head sometime in the future, you know?

 

[picklenjim]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Jim,

Hate to ask the obvious but I have to: what was the fate of the other 454?

I hear you on the supply of 350s. I'm trying to weigh this carefully so fall doesn't turn into "how fast can I pull the motor THIS year".

I still have the short block sitting in my basement. It was a 468" motor and I built the stroker motor and swapped motors.I never had any problems with it.

By the way I remember the machinist at the shop I use telling me one time they had blocks there before that had every cylinder in them sleeved. As far as installing a sleeve no they don't bore all the way into the waterjacket.If they did that it would be ruiened. As havasuboatman said they bore about .250" oversize which would be taking .125" off the wall (2 sides of cyl.=.250").Then install the sleeve which is about .125" thick which would bring that cyl.to approx. standard size. Then they would bore it .030" over to match the other cyls. which would be removing .015" off the wall. The new sleeve would now be about .110" thick.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I the the crack would become a non issue. With the sleeve, the crack would no longer be receiving pressure form the compression or combustion as the sleeve will now be taking that load...

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Great questions and answers so far, there are several things I would question before I had it sleeved. A) Is crack from a previous mechanical failure? B) Is crack from flawed block casting? C) Was machining off( off center or angled) that caused cylinder to crack (thin walls)D) Did block have core shift?(Core shift is the cast iron moving while pouring or cooling and giving unequal wall thickness)
A) if yes= sleeve
B) if yes= replace block
C) if yes= replace block or sleeve
D) if yes= replace block
Just my $.02

 

[havasuboatman]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Havasu came with the credentials!

I'm just trying to learn about it so I can understand. Boring .250 over puts you into the water jacket, right? Then you press the sleeve in and the sealant + interference fit makes a "new" water jacket as opposed to the water jacket being made in casting?

I agree with you on water temp and pressure being helpful, but how does running WOT all day affect it, if at all?

I guess what I'm trying to avoid is giving the block any more places to leak from than it already has.

Yes, it will go into the water jacket.
It wont effect anything. You will never notice it being in there.
Unless your machine shop guys are a bunch of completly incompotent morons, there is no way you will have a leak.
All aluminum automotive engine blocks have sleeved cylinders. You are stressing over nothing.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Hmm..


Well. I am in the "he should have known and given you this choice before he did the work", camp......


My experience with a sleeved cyl is limited. I have had a few that worked just fine.


I had one that didn't work so well. It was a 1.6L I-4 VW turbo diesel. It had "bad" cyls that were a problem......getting it bored 0.020-0.030" oversize would have fixed it....

The original pistons were in excellent shape and if I had went oversize, the new pistons & rings would have cost more than $700!......(VW diesel parts are crazy expensive even from the after market!!)

So the genius at the machine shop told me he could just sleeve all 4 cyls and bore it back to standard size so we could use the original pistons and new rings............ Besides, "We sleeve these little VW diesels ALL THE TIME"...... (he said)......


I put the engine back together and ran it .......it ran fine until about 35,000 miles, then it started getting hard to start and acting weird.....like a blown head gasket or something......and the blowby was horrendous! I had NEVER overheated it too.....

When I pulled the head the block was cracked between the two inner cylinders! When I asked another machine shop "genius" he said they don't usually sleeve VW diesels..........because there's "not enough meat left in the block after boring for the sleeves" (he said)


Yours is not a VW diesel. And they actually do successfully sleeve SBC/BBC engines "all the time".

I would still ask the guy if he would do a different block for you. Use the original pistons (they're oversize?) get a new ring set though....

It would probably be just fine with a sleeved cyl......






Regards,


Rick

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

I really appreciate all the feedback here. My questions are geared more towards me understanding sleeving so I can make the best possible decision.

Since my last post I was able to get on the horn with the builder that the local Mercruiser works with. Like a lot of you guys are saying, they told me that sleeving "if done correctly is a perfectly acceptable repair on a marine engine...we do it all the time..." but added that "generally we see it more when people have issues with their block and don't want to pay for another one".

In line with what Rick was saying, if given the choice before everything was put together I would have been more than happy to pay for another block. That said, when I get the motor to him I'll see what he wants to work out on that front and worst case scenario I'll know that sleeving should hold (I can probably then ask him what he'd be willing to do if it doesn't).

Rick also brings up a good point on some of the other things I was trying to prevent myself from thinking about - rings, gasket sets, etc. All of this stuff was brand new. I'm imagining he's going to try saying the rings won't need to be replaced since they are new and if I want them to be replaced it will be at my expense. Then we start getting into head gaskets, etc.

Havasu is right, I'm stressing. Mostly over non-issues, but having this problem in the first place really doesn't inspire a vote of confidence. I'm trying to get my stuff in order so that if this thing fails again it's not somehow turned around on me.

 

[havasuboatman]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Hey, you are doing the right thing: Research.
If it were me, I'd have the bad cylinder repaired. This guy missed something, I wish I could say I have never done the same thing, but only a liar would try to get that one by. The fact that he fessed up, and offered to repair shows character. It just seems to me like he's an honorable guy. Work with him. Pay for the sleeve and sleeve labor, let him pay for the teardown and gaskets.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Stev, I think you have gotten the best and worst of possiblities from the post. You have researched and done your homework on a sleeving, etc. So, you are one step ahead when talking to the shop owner again. Also, at least you know that if you have to resort to a sleeve, it is not the end of the world and once done, you may never know the difference...

Let us know what arrangement you work out with him...

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Hey, you are doing the right thing: Research.
If it were me, I'd have the bad cylinder repaired. This guy missed something, I wish I could say I have never done the same thing, but only a liar would try to get that one by. The fact that he fessed up, and offered to repair shows character. It just seems to me like he's an honorable guy. Work with him. Pay for the sleeve and sleeve labor, let him pay for the teardown and gaskets.

Haven't we all. And I know that if I missed something I'd appreciate the opportunity to make it right. I'd also appreciate the offended party if they didn't climb down my throat since I am human. That's why I'm just trying to work something out. I deal with irate people all the time in a field where being as unreasonable as possible is highly rewarded. And I'll say that it doesn't work that way in any other forum.

Despite all this, I can say that he's at least earned my respect as a man. Nowadays everything is a contract, people still try to find loophole ways out of honoring contracts, and it remains that some of the best people to deal with are those who can look you square in the eyes and give you a firm handshake. That said, if the world as a whole were more like that I'd be out of a job

After going through some itemized receipts, it's 9.5 hours each way on the motor R&R. He's offered to do the sleeve for free and my thinking is having to pull and install the engine a second time puts me out a bit more than he'll have tied up in gaskets. I'm seriously trying hard to be calm about this (the old lady is FURIOUS, which is altogether strange given the disparity in how much time she's worked on it compared to me) but my time is no more free than his. I do hate people who go out of their way looking for a handout (maybe I can convince GM to give me a bailout block) but there comes a point where you have to look at the whole situation.

If you missed something in a build, say you forgot a bearing somewhere and it were possible for the customer to realize the error after the installation but before serious damage. Would you see yourself telling the customer to tear the engine down, bring you the short block so you can add the bearing, or would you tell them to bring you the motor so you can fix it? Maybe I need to start being less generous in my line of work, but I don't think people should have to put themselves out on account of my mistake, however honest it may have been. Works in theory, but is this position unreasonable in practice?

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

How did you diagnose a cracked cylinder? Oh forget it I just saw you old thread.

Default Re: Oil in water...getting it out
Well, the intake manifold turned out to be fine. It appears to be a cracked block.

Before putting everything back on I decided to do another water pressure test.

With the piston near TDC no water accumulates on top of the piston, but the oil level rises. With the piston near BDC the oil level stays the same but water accumulates on top of the piston (to the point where I can stick a thin flexible tube in the spark plug hole, down the cylinder, and suck water through the tube).

Before I stop at the machine shop to break my foot off in the owner's @$$, could this possibly be anything other than a crack in the cylinder wall?
__________________
If it ain't broke, it will be after I do this...

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

StevN
Think of the sleeve as a heli-coil. You have a hole that is stripped and need new threads, you drill out the hole bigger then rethread it and install the coil and wala you have a new hole of the original size. Its the same with a sleeze, just no thread.


For all you AutoZone mechanics.

Maxnafluxing, if you dont know what it is look it up.
During a standard engine rebuild, Maxnafluxing the block is not part of it unless there is a prior problem or you make a special request to have it done at an added cost.
There is always a chance that you will find a new crack when boring or decking a block. There is always imperfections in the casting process. This is fact and unless its a hand made engine then its never going to be perfect.

Most of the cracks in a cylinder liner that are exposted when boring are so small that you cant see them, and they dont open enough to leak until they have some heat in them.

To the ones that say you should replace the block,
There is alot work that goes into machining a block, and this would be money just tossed into the trash. Adding a sleeve is a proper repair and is perfectly acceptable.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

StevN
Its the same with a sleeze, just no thread.

What kind of women are you dating? I too prefer my sleezes without thread. I couldn't resist.

I was able to find a video that helped. Sometimes I just need to see something once to really understand.

For all you AutoZone mechanics.

Ouch!!!

Maxnafluxing, if you dont know what it is look it up.
During a standard engine rebuild, Maxnafluxing the block is not part of it unless there is a prior problem or you make a special request to have it done at an added cost.

This may be a regional difference but there isn't a shop around here that I've talked to (all of them) that will do a build without Magnafluxing. I have heard of guys that don't, depending on the purpose of the rebuild (worn rings, bearings, etc.) and if it's a backyard build but not in any actual shops around here.

There is always a chance that you will find a new crack when boring or decking a block. There is always imperfections in the casting process. This is fact and unless its a hand made engine then its never going to be perfect.

Which is why, to my understanding, shops around here do the Mag before machining, but the much more telling test is to pressure test the engine to 3 bar to see if it can hold pressure. Of course I wasn't offered this and didn't even know about it until I asked another shop how else this could have been prevented. Of course "this time we'll pressure test it before it leaves".

To the ones that say you should replace the block,
There is alot work that goes into machining a block, and this would be money just tossed into the trash. Adding a sleeve is a proper repair and is perfectly acceptable.

I think what everybody was saying about replacing the block is that it would have been an option then and should explored as an option now. I'm pretty sure that if he told me about it at the time I would have opted, and paid, for another block since they're everywhere. Probably for no real reason other than perceived peace of mind, but I would have been more comfortable with starting fresh (what else might be wrong with this block that it even has one leaking cylinder - throwing good money after bad).

That said, there's also a lot of work that goes into R&I in this application. I know some guys that have to take motors out of their boat in pieces, going through the galley and out a window. Mine isn't that bad, but it's also not something that can be done in a couple hours or an afternoon. Point being, it's conceivable that there's someone out there that could use it with no qualms if I end up with another block...it's not like the block would simply be discarded.

I also found the answer to the crack question. If the crack is not cut out, it will grow. Period. The issue would be how fast it grew and where it terminated. So for it to really not come back to bite me, the boring for the sleeve would have to be sufficiently large to cut the crack out completely so the wall of the cylinder forms one wall of the water jacket. If it's not completely out it'd be the functional equivalent of putting in a heli-coil without first getting out all of the old threads.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Mr. Bond,

Not trying to get in your mustache on this, but are you suggesting that I be happy doing the same work twice because someone I paid to do something right the first time needs two chances? When I mentioned he offered little resistance I meant that in light of a few conversations I had yesterday with people who had work done there and had a hard time getting him to make good. He needs another irate customer about as much as I need the motor to not get fixed. So I just walked in, asked if he and I could talk in private and we squared up away from the wife and fellas.

Ayuh,... I'm just a lowly Mechanic Steve,.... I, like Everybodyelse, make Mistakes...
When I do, I apologize,... then try to make it Right...
It looks to me that your Machinest is not only Human, but Honorable as well....
I aspire to become like You someday, and Never makes mistakes....
Although I doubt I'll live long enough for that...
Only because I live by the creed that,..."If you're Not making mistakes, you Ain't doing Nothin'"....

I also found the answer to the crack question. If the crack is not cut out, it will grow. Period.

Naw,.. Nope,... Not necessarily.... Actually quite a Fallacy....

You found the answer you were Looking for.... Regardless of the Facts....
Experience, not internet information taught me that....

Good Luck....

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

It's annoying when you ask someone a question then question their answer. I was dissapointed reading your last entre.
Great reply Bond what took you so long.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Ayuh,... I'm just a lowly Mechanic Steve,.... I, like Everybodyelse, make Mistakes...
When I do, I apologize,... then try to make it Right...
It looks to me that your Machinest is not only Human, but Honorable as well....
I aspire to become like You someday, and Never makes mistakes....
Although I doubt I'll live long enough for that...
Only because I live by the creed that,..."If you're Not making mistakes, you Ain't doing Nothin'"....

Naw,.. Nope,... Not necessarily.... Actually quite a Fallacy....

You found the answer you were Looking for.... Regardless of the Facts....
Experience, not internet information taught me that....

Good Luck....

Mr. Bond:

May you live forever.

I was trying to prevent this from turning into a d*ck measuring contest. That's why I said I wasn't trying to get in your mustache. Everyone knows, especially me, that the overwhelming majority of you guys have forgotten more than I'd ever know if I lived forever. That's why I'm here, to draw on your experience.

Also, there is absolutely NOTHING lowly about a mechanic. My old man pulls the same stuff with me, but his "I'm just a stupid cement finisher" routine is what put me through school. Nobody in this life is better or worse than anybody else, we're just going about trying to do the same thing in different ways.

I said my machinist is honorable, "I can say that he's at least earned my respect as a man." We've all made mistakes, and I've also admitted that, "Haven't we all. And I know that if I missed something I'd appreciate the opportunity to make it right. I'd also appreciate the offended party if they didn't climb down my throat since I am human."

It's flattering that you aspire to be like me one day but I do want you to know that it will involve making mistakes. Hopefully that won't change your aspirations . I live by the same creed, but it's put differently, "Lets stop the bullsh*ttin', 'Til we're all without sin let's quit the pulpit-in'".

On the crack, that information wasn't gathered from the internet, it came from a professor that has spent the past 20 years studying fracture mechanics of materials. And you're right with "not necessarily". The complete response was "a crack subjected to cyclic loading (thermally or mechanically) will propagate UNLESS it is pinned mechanically or by the grain structure." That said, the rate of growth depends on a lot of things and it may grow so slowly that other things fail before the crack grows enough to be a problem. For example, the containers the U.S. puts nuclear waste in (and bury somewhere) are made of things that, to you and I, "don't corrode". They actually DO corrode, but the corrosion rate is so slow that the service life of the vessel is on the order of 10,000 years.

I'm listening to everything you're saying and I'm not to cross you. I'm just trying to understand.

While the fact is the poll is essentially split down the middle, I've gathered that sleeving is acceptable and that answer is based on the facts, not regardless of them. I don't know if that last part is supposed to be a knock on the internet, but this forum itself uses the internet as a way for people to exchange their experiences; just have to be careful whose experience you draw on. That's why I ask questions! "Closed mouths don't get fed."

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

It's annoying when you ask someone a question then question their answer. I was dissapointed reading your last entre.
Great reply Bond what took you so long.

You're from Ohio; we're supposed to stick together . How did I disappoint you?

I'm sure the government feels the same way about questions...these pesky taxpayers!

To be certain, I DON'T ask questions in an attempt to discredit anyone. I ask questions so I can understand the WHY and the HOW. If that's annoying, then be annoyed. But I'm certain that most (if not all) of the people on here didn't learn everything they know by asking questions once and that being the end of it!

That was what I expected of him and was on point. I think the typing with 1 finger did him in.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

How did you diagnose a cracked cylinder? Oh forget it I just saw you old thread.

Default Re: Oil in water...getting it out
Well, the intake manifold turned out to be fine. It appears to be a cracked block.

Before putting everything back on I decided to do another water pressure test.

With the piston near TDC no water accumulates on top of the piston, but the oil level rises. With the piston near BDC the oil level stays the same but water accumulates on top of the piston (to the point where I can stick a thin flexible tube in the spark plug hole, down the cylinder, and suck water through the tube).

Before I stop at the machine shop to break my foot off in the owner's @$$, could this possibly be anything other than a crack in the cylinder wall?
__________________
If it ain't broke, it will be after I do this...

Was there a point to this?

 

[proshadetree]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

Sleeving is a normal process.If you dont trust this guy pay someo0ne else to build it.Just remember we all step in it.Magging a block is a pain in the butt.Lot of surface to cover.Sonic check is best.

 

[Don S]

Re: Sleeving a cylinder with a cracked wall?

This is turning into a snipping fest.
Closed